Protocol to mask EPO

iainf72

Remember those chaps who got bust at Avenir last year?

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3738/ ... ities.aspx

Ok, so it's Bordry and we need a pinch of salt but still....

Kléber

All he's saying is that riders can take EPO out of competition, micro-dose or use other products like Actovegin and they won't test positive.

This isn't necessarily new, after all US Postal were caught using Actovegin in 2000.

champs

I long suspected that uncaught dopers continued to use small doses of EPO, but apparently micro-dosing isn't perfect.

dave_1

The rider said he was only caught cause he didn't remember to down a litre of water...quite frightening to think he was that confident he wouldn't be caught, an easy mistake to avoid by the looks of it...so any rider with a proper dr keeping tabs on that will easily get round the 6 am test. Awful news...

TheHelpfulDevil

Awful news - understatement. if all you need to remember to do is drink some water.....oh my.

OffTheBackAdam

Bollocks!
EPO & it's ilk are detected by antibody reactions in the blood, drinking a bucket of water isn't going to affect that.
It will reduce haematocrit, which is the percentage by volume of cellular matter in the blood, so potentially get those at 50.1%Hct down to a "healthy" 49.9%.

Pokerface

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

Bollocks!
EPO & it's ilk are detected by antibody reactions in the blood, drinking a bucket of water isn't going to affect that.
It will reduce haematocrit, which is the percentage by volume of cellular matter in the blood, so potentially get those at 50.1%Hct down to a "healthy" 49.9%.

I think it's more to do with hiding EPO in urine tests - not in blood tests. Enough fluid will theoretically water down the level of EPO in the urine, therefore making it 'undetectable'.

EricCunha

so if one athlete take epo, how many days today before he can be detected by urine test like positive?

iainf72

EricCunha wrote:

so if one athlete take epo, how many days today before he can be detected by urine test like positive?

Somewhere in the region of 12 hours, if you believe the doping protocols.

Robb0

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

Bollocks!
EPO & it's ilk are detected by antibody reactions in the blood, drinking a bucket of water isn't going to affect that.
It will reduce haematocrit, which is the percentage by volume of cellular matter in the blood, so potentially get those at 50.1%Hct down to a "healthy" 49.9%.

I raised this point in the Landis thread a few pages back - although I still don't understand how the blood can be 'super-diluted', if you like. Surely if you drink excess water it will be urinated out? Any medical bod want to confirm this?

Pokerface wrote:

I think it's more to do with hiding EPO in urine tests - not in blood tests. Enough fluid will theoretically water down the level of EPO in the urine, therefore making it 'undetectable'.

Not convinced it will even make it undetectable in urine. If the test can detect it in a few mL of urine, it should be able to detect it in a litre - drinking water isn't going to change the concentration by orders of magnitude.

Kléber

From what I gather they can detect the presence of EPO but require a certain concentration to have stronger proof of doping.

Under various research projects one or two of the labs, one was Lausanne, had found quite a few suspicious cases, but not enough to prosecute with. But this was a couple of years back.

Vino2007

Could you freeze EPO-free urine during the offseason then use it for tests lol?

iainf72

Vino2007 wrote:

Could you freeze EPO-free urine during the offseason then use it for tests lol?

You don't have to freeze it but as long as you can get some clean urine, there are options.

9.1.3 Catheterization:

First void your bladder as you would with injection. Run a thin plastic tube to the bladder. (Males must insert the tube into the opening of the penis, go through the urethra and into the bladder.) Catheterization done on females is not as unpleasant as it is for males. Then inject the clean urine into the bladder via catheter. Catheterization is less painful, safer, and more effective. Infection is still possible.

From here

That's one reason they keep their eyes on people so closely before tests.

EricCunha

So, if I took alfapoetina in small quantity during one month and stop 20 days before the competition. Drinking lot of water, on the day 21, the urine doping test will not detect ?

EricCunha

Robb0
iainf72
So , if I took the alfapoetina for months, my hematocrit is in normal level. Could I be clean to do the urine doping test in how many days?

EricCunha

anyone to help me?

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

Vino2007 wrote:

Could you freeze EPO-free urine during the offseason then use it for tests lol?

You don't have to freeze it but as long as you can get some clean urine, there are options.

9.1.3 Catheterization:

First void your bladder as you would with injection. Run a thin plastic tube to the bladder. (Males must insert the tube into the opening of the penis, go through the urethra and into the bladder.) Catheterization done on females is not as unpleasant as it is for males. Then inject the clean urine into the bladder via catheter. Catheterization is less painful, safer, and more effective. Infection is still possible.

From here

That's one reason they keep their eyes on people so closely before tests.

Mike Pollentier's way was easier and a damn sight less uncomfortable too id imagine

apriliarider

From our friends at CuttingEdgeMuscle -

"You have to be very careful here...

First of all you cannot jack crit with micro dosing...it's only to hold crit or to prevent a drop in very hard racing.

You take your micro at about 8pm after most of the vampires go home. However, if they have targeted you they can show up late so you have to do your shot and disappear til late then go to bed. It's best to have several places that you can sleep(different homes).
By morning a micro that has been done IV ONLY! will not give you an above normal epo reading...

200iu's is more than enough for an evening micro and it's best to use Dynepo(human identical) cause they can do testing to see if that epo sample is synthetic ie: epo alpha or beta ...they detect animal protein.

The normal level for epo production in the human kidney is
11-48 mU/ml (milliunits per milliliter) upon testing.

It is a lot safer to simply take out a liter of blood, or somewhat less cause that's a lot, and then store it correctly. It can be stored for up to 6 weeks and by that time your crit is back to normal from the blood letting lol.

No I am not going to tell you how cause if I did guys will try it and end up sick or worse.

Guys with connections and money have lots of blood stored but it's packed cells. That is, all the plasma is spun off and then the red cells are quickly frozen wit liquid nitrogen and placed in to a very deep freeze. Again you have to know what you are doing or you're toast. Blood doping isn't rocket science but it takes a certain level of knowledge, sterile technique and the right equipment and storage ...with BACK UP GENERATOR.

This is what was going on with our friendly Spanish doctor and Basso, Ulrich etc etc..he had their frozen bags of packed cells!

Sometimes they store whole blood for up to 6 weeks for a big race. YOU CANNOT FREEZE WHOLE BLOOD...do that and transfuse and YOU ARE DEAD!

Guys like Contra-doper, Lance, Basso, Chicken, "The dirty Schlek's", and others will store their own blood and not use a generic guy like our good Spanish doc...not since that shit went down in Spain.

No Lance is not going to have his frozen packed cells in one of his mansions..not a chance.

If it's you own blood(autologous) you can transfuse it fast safely.

You can jack crit to say 50 in the morning with transfusion...then shove in a couple liters of hypertonic saline and go straight to controls. You crit will be good after the saline. You can use regular old isotonic normal saline or a hypertonic solution. The hypertonic solution pulls water into the vessels from the body and hangs around longer too. The kidneys start to get rid of the excess water pronto so you have to move quick.

A good trick that the very serious riders can also do is to empty their bladders with a straight catheter....totally empty...pushing hard on lower abdomen...and then drain in somebody's urine that they know is clean...then off to controls they go pronto."

Scary stuff !!!

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

9.1.3 Catheterization:

First void your bladder as you would with injection. Run a thin plastic tube to the bladder. (Males must insert the tube into the opening of the penis, go through the urethra and into the bladder.) Catheterization done on females is not as unpleasant as it is for males. Then inject the clean urine into the bladder via catheter. Catheterization is less painful, safer, and more effective. Infection is still possible.

From here

That's one reason they keep their eyes on people so closely before tests.

Unless, of course, you are in one of Armstrong's teams and it is is the UCI doing the testing, in which case the officials will sit and have a chat with the crew over coffee for 50 minutes whilst the team 'prepare' to give samples...

On the other hand, if someone from the AFLD turns up to do an out of competition test, you might need to lock him out for 20 minutes or so whilst you 'shower' and 'check out his credentials'...

EricCunha

I have only alfaepoetina. There is no chance to use it? Even with a window of 20 days without use? My hematrocrite is around 45 and I use 4m ob the last day.
tks

EricCunha

hi I really need a help...
I took alfapoetina for one month,each 3 days, and one month more only taking one dose per week, and I have my level of hem= 45
the last dose was 4u, on 8 june.
I'll go to a competition on 25 26 27 june, and I would like to know if I'll not be detected by anti doping.
Do you know it?
If I'll have chance to be detected, what could be the best decision?
I'm thinking to donate blood, its could help me to do not be detected?
I dont have acess of any drugs or helps...
I just take the alfapoetina to try, but I'm confused now...
Please help me,
C

DaveyL

Quick, start up a cancer charity.

Good luck!

ratsbeyfus

EricCunha wrote:

hi I really need a help...
I took alfapoetina for one month,each 3 days, and one month more only taking one dose per week, and I have my level of hem= 45
the last dose was 4u, on 8 june.
I'll go to a competition on 25 26 27 june, and I would like to know if I'll not be detected by anti doping.
Do you know it?
If I'll have chance to be detected, what could be the best decision?
I'm thinking to donate blood, its could help me to do not be detected?
I dont have acess of any drugs or helps...
I just take the alfapoetina to try, but I'm confused now...
Please help me,
C

Can I have your bike when your ketchup-blood explodes your heart? On second thoughts, I'll pass...I'm guessing your bike has got one of them teeny motors in it! :twisted:

No_Ta_Doctor

DaveyL wrote:

Quick, start up a cancer charity.

Good luck!

EricCunha

Ill not use anymore, I did a mistake!
and now I would like to be free of this.
donating blood and drinking water could help me?
I really dont want to be like this or be detected ...
So 20 days without use + donate blood (450ml) and drinking water could help me to be "normal" again? who could help me?
thanks

knedlicky

Moray Gub wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Vino2007 wrote:

Could you freeze EPO-free urine during the offseason then use it for tests lol?

You don't have to freeze it but as long as you can get some clean urine, there are options.
9.1.3 Catheterization:

First void your bladder as you would with injection. Run a thin plastic tube to the bladder. (Males must insert the tube into the opening of the penis, go through the urethra and into the bladder.) Catheterization done on females is not as unpleasant as it is for males. Then inject the clean urine into the bladder via catheter. Catheterization is less painful, safer, and more effective. Infection is still possible.

From here

That's one reason they keep their eyes on people so closely before tests.

Mike Pollentier's way was easier and a damn sight less uncomfortable too id imagine

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2010/06/finding_fake_urine_a_real_chal.html

I wonder who Teresa's husband is - see the customer reviews in the link for Dr John's Famous Pee Pee.

In the 60s/70s, riders neutralised urine samples due to be tested for amphetamines by dipping a finger in a disinfectant, and then urinating over the finger into the sample collection beaker.