Wikileaks video.

dennisn

Rick Chasey wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Under the stresses of war it's not in the least bit difficult to work up some enthusiasm to
kill someone who's trying to kill you and whoop it up when you do. It's happened in wars for centuries. Nothing new except to people who haven't been exposed to that kind of reality.

Yeah, because those civilians with their camera were such a threat to the helicopter.

As was the man trying to tend to the wounded.

Ya got me wrong. I'm not defending anything. Just telling it like it is and always has been.
Wars are not fought in some sterile environment, all according to the rules of civilised society. They are foul things, pretty much without rules, and these are the kind of things that happen. People die. Innocent or not. I don't see this changing in the future. Soldiers take very few chances. It's kill whomever is known or perceived to be the enemy.
When the blitz was on, did it bother the German people? Probably not. When the allies were finally able to bomb Germany did it bother the Allies? I think not. Revenge tasted pretty good then(as now) even though many innocent people died.

passout

All of the above stuff about 'the heat of battle' is true BUT these guys were not doing their jobs well, that's my point. They got it wrong; If I get things wrong in my job and make a MASSIVE mistake, It would be looked into and I may be punished. Same should apply here - perhaps they have been court marshalled? Anyone know? The miltiary can't just say 'it's one of those things' because it's counterproductive to them too.

It seems to be the Americans and only the American have bombed an awful lot of weddings, funerals etc etc recently.

dennisn

passout wrote:

Don't compare them to yourself or other civvies but compare them to other airmen & soldiers who are in much more dangerous positions (eg Infantry on patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan with IRDs etc) all he time and still don't make those sort of mistakes. Those stories in Afghanistan about wounded soldiers helping their mates or bomb disposal experts giving their lives don't smack of panic or bloodlust. Rather professionalism, calmness and doing what is necessary. In other words the guys on that video were, by any standards, ineffective soldiers. Remember that they aim to protect the locals and win hearts and minds....

I would venture to say that war brings out the best AND the worst in people. Men can become heroes or villains or both in a split second. To be honest I don't really believe there are any RULES in these things. Noble sentiment and public opinion aside there is a "get some" attitude when other people are shooting at you. Imagine someone breaking into your house with the intent to do you harm or worse. I think you'd be surprised at how quickly you develope that "get some" mindset.

rake

markyboy2005 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rake wrote:

i meant in the situation of being in a war, not of having killed those people.

But I'm not in the war?

Just because I'm not in the war, does not mean I have no right to an opinion on the matter?

By the sounds of that marine account, you bloody well need someone who hasn't been in the war to have a reasonable position on the matter!

I find it hard to believe that people are defending an incident when these people kill 8 civilians, with no show of remorse, dubious evidence that they saw a weapon, evidence that they were happy to cover it up, and (according to the Reuters report) that the final 'official' report said they found rocket launchers and assault rifles, which as we can clearly see, is not the case.

It's not defensible, whatever the circumstances. If they are in a frame of mind that lets them internally justify that, then they should be taken out of the forces, since it's not justifable.

I think thats the problem for me - you cant accept others having another opinion.....quite annoying really....

How do you want the soldiers to be, solemn, respectful of the enemy, sad they killed the enemy?
IT IS A WAR There job is to kill the "baddies", that is how they are trained and tell me this, do you think the taliban etc get analysed when they murder maim kill?
What Rake is trying to explain to you is that you can't judge these actions in the context of your surroundings, you have to empathise with the situation these guys are in, expand your mind, imagine another paradigm.

You seem capable of empathising with the guys who got killed, try empathising with the guys who did the killing. Not agree with them, not like them, but at least imagine being in their shoes....

I am pretty sure that when they shot at the van they thought they were killing more combatants, who is to say that van was not filled with more weapons and a couple of handy guys to use them?
And as for the kids not having a father - do you think that is a good mindset for a soldier to be thinking of his enemies family every time he pulls the trigger?

I am not saying it is right, I am saying it is happening under the context of a war, a situation most of us could never imagine.

IMO this video leak will actually strengthen most peoples belief that young men are being sent into a hell hole where they will make decisions that will cause death, and ruin lives including their own. I would imagine its only the very naive that would personalise this into these soldiers being bad people....Just my opinion.

thats exactly what i meant. ive never been in a war but i try too imagine the effects it will have on you which are life long when i spare a thought for the people who have to try and resolve it. i think dennisn has been in combat so i would take his assesment of it above my own.