Quick One: ASLs?

simon johnson

Are these strictly for cyclists only?

If I see the light go to red then I'll filter through to get to the ASL box when there is one, though more often than not these days, and particularly in the morning, these are crammed full of motorbikes. Such that on occasion there is not room for one cyclist (I experience this frequently on Holloway Rd, London, southbound, near Middlesex Uni, if anybody knows it).

Is this OK for them to do? If not, then this is quite shocking!

Aidy

simon johnson wrote:

Is this OK for them to do? If not, then this is quite shocking!

In short, no, they're not. It's been discussed on here a few times

The proviso is, if they've already crossed the line when the light changes, then they are.
This generally isn't the case in my experience, it's a shame the police are willing to turn a blind eye to it.

lost_in_thought

I'm pretty sure motorbikes are not meant to be in them - they are for cyclists.

However, I understand this is tricky for plod to enforce.

Doesn't stop me giving them a sorrowful look, followed by pointedly staring at the pictute of the cyclist. I go for guilt rather than anger, like when your mum used to pull the 'I'm not angry, but I'm very disappointed in you' line.

Aidy

lost_in_thought wrote:

However, I understand this is tricky for plod to enforce.

Stopped in one once, to have a white van pull all the way into it neatly, with two uniformed police officers crossing directly in front of him.

They carried on their conversation with each other quite happily, despite the cyclist next to me loudly clearing his throat

Pretty disappointing, really.

simon johnson

It MUST be that they don't know and see it as some extension of the (deplorable) right for them to be in the bus lane. Am I too optimistic to believe that they're creeping into the ASL knowing that they shouldn't?...and there's a big bloody painting of bicycle right in the middle of it, not an engine in sight

So has anybody reproached an offender caught in the act? I'm feeling compelled to educate these ignoramuses with a sign on the bag or something, though I don't want to look the smug prick that I promise I'm not.

simon johnson

Aidy wrote:

simon johnson wrote:

Is this OK for them to do? If not, then this is quite shocking!

In short, no, they're not. It's been discussed on here a few times

The proviso is, if they've already crossed the line when the light changes, then they are.
This generally isn't the case in my experience, it's a shame the police are willing to turn a blind eye to it.

Yeah, I should've perhaps use the search function.... but then there's going to be a lot of pent up frustration to be diffused elsewhere, somehow.

Aidy

simon johnson wrote:

Yeah, I should've perhaps use the search function.... but then there's going to be a lot of pent up frustration to be diffused elsewhere, somehow.

Sorry, it wasn't a reprimand.

I was just saying, you aren't the only one to have been frustrated by this.

prj45

I don't think we're ever going to see ASL's enforced and I think we should give up wasting effort on trying.

As they are they kind of work.

If you ask for them to be strictly enforced then many cyclists break the law getting into them; the only legal way of doing so when the light is red is to use the little filter bit on the left (sometime's right), if you don't you're crossing the white line when the light is red, criminal offence I'm afraid.

What's more, some of them don't even have the little filter lanes!

stuaff

ASLs being abused by motorists really hack me off. if you can't see the stop line you should be using, or have started braking in time, you shouldn't be on the road. One time riding home from work a numpty had stopped slap bang in the middle of one. I move round and stop in front of him. The light goes red, he cuts me up immediately, right on the turn, then further down the road (where he's now parked), he has the temerity to tell me I should be careful. I'm sure you can guess what I thought of that....

prj45

StuAff wrote:

One time riding home from work a numpty had stopped slap bang in the middle of one.

If you didn't see them do it wouldn't be assuming they've not pulled up on a red light and ended up stopping in the ASL after they passed the first line, but before they passed the second line, which is perfectly legal, indeed it's illegal for a vehicle not to stop in the ASL in this situation.

simon johnson

prj45 wrote:

What's more, some of them don't even have the little filter lanes!

Exactly, the box in which I regularly find motorcyclists packed into has no filter lane.

But do people believe that this is, in general, is ignorance on the part of the flouters, despite the huge painted bicycle, or a blatant disregard for the rules? I suppose it's impossible to know really, I don't know if this was made clear with the (inception of) the bus lane trial. It seems to stem from the trial anyhow; it's not something I really noticed beforehand.

Cars seem to creep in there occasionally, though I've usually (bar the odd buffoon) only seen cars present when they have, or looked to have, been caught out by the lights.

fnegroni

Maybe because I don't cycle in London, but I don't really care whether anyone who by law shouldn't, actually uses it or not.
When I get to a junction with an ASL, I just interpret it as 'if I want, I can stop that little bit further ahead'.
If there is already some motor vehicle at the junction, I stop behind them anyway, so whether they are in the ASL or not, I would not use it.

mark1964

The Highway Code states that all motor vehicles must stop at the first white line on a red light. This includes motorbikes. However, there is a provision in the law, designed to accommodate car drivers who might find themselves accidentally caught in the ASL if the vehicle in front stops suddenly etc, and the lights change.

My experience with motorcyclists here in Bristol is that they seem to think hat the ASL is an extension to bus lanes. I find it difficult to see how a motorbike could become 'accidentally' caught in the ASL as they are very manoeuvrable. Here's a recent incident:

I am sat in ASL waiting for lights to change when motorcyclist casually rides past line of cars and attempts to enter the small ASL. On seeing me, he rides past over second line which, in legal terms, is considered as jumping the lights, and positions himself about ten feet in front of me, revving his engine loudly to sound his 'displeasure'. I had last laugh though when the No.7 bus emerged from a side street and he was forced to move out of the way as he found himself inside its turning circle

Stand your ground in the ASL and position yourself safely. Motorists and bikers should know they aren't allowed in it. Bikers can get a bit aggressive though, especially the racing bike fraternity who seem to think the road is a test track for their speed machines.

simon johnson

I had last laugh though when the No.7 bus emerged from a side street and he was forced to move out of the way as he found himself inside its turning circle Laughing

Ha!!

And now the fair weather bikers will be coming out.... hell's bells.

I certainly stand my ground when in the ASL, but there have been times where I couldn't even get in there!! For cyclists these things are almost necessary, for motorcyclists they just seem to be a convenience for launching at warp speed to the next red light.

Is the allowing of motorbikes in Bristol's bus lanes a trial such as London, Mark? I think a decision is due this July for our trial.

mark1964

No, it's been established for some time now. Since about the mid 90's, I think. I have info from a friend, who is a biker himself, that two councillors pressured Bristol City Council into it. They were apparently also campaigning members for the Motorcycle Action Group. So you could say it was an 'inside' job. There was little consultation or study as in London, so we're stuck with it.

Mr_Cellophane

This one on Barking Road at Canning Town is for cycles and solo m/c
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=51.518411,0.013969&spn=0,359.98734&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.518346,0.013837&panoid=-kvXN-h7zJocbPzO4svRoA&cbp=12,239.47,,1,11.71

simon johnson

Interesting, not seen one of those before. Cheers

prj45

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

This one on Barking Road at Canning Town is for cycles and solo m/c
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=51.518411,0.013969&spn=0,359.98734&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.518346,0.013837&panoid=-kvXN-h7zJocbPzO4svRoA&cbp=12,239.47,,1,11.71

That can't be legal! There's no precedent for such an installation in the law on how to set up an ASL.

Interesting is the little bit of line missing on the right, is this so the PTWs can pass the first line and get into the box?

cyberknight

These Townies with their fancy ASL :shock:

Seriously though i would have thought they should not be in the box otherwise whats the point?

Mr_Cellophane

Odd thing is I have never seen a motorbike in either of the ASLs at that junction. :?

Headhuunter

London ASL are more often blocked by motorists and motorbikes. They're not supposed to be there. I have written about this here before but my response generally is to pull ahead of the ASL and into or past the pedestrian bit and in front of the motorbikes.

Last year I was stopped by the police for doing this, when I pointed out that it had been impossible for me to get into the ASL, he said that didn't matter. I asked why he hadn't stopped the motorists in the ASL box and he said that he had taken down their reg numbers which was total b0llox because his eyes were on me the entire time.

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

So my response remains to get ahead of the ASL or simply to RLJ (if there's nothing coming).

fnegroni

Headhuunter wrote:

So my response remains to get ahead of the ASL or simply to RLJ (if there's nothing coming).

My advice is to do the exact opposite.

Headhuunter

fnegroni wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

So my response remains to get ahead of the ASL or simply to RLJ (if there's nothing coming).

My advice is to do the exact opposite.

Well we each do what we need to do to feel safe. I feel that getting ahead of traffic at junctions is of utmost importance, you feel it's safer to sit somewhere in the middle of it. Anyway, I've sent the City Police response basically saying they do not enforce ASLs to my local Councillor who has forwarded it to someone at the London Assembly who is taking it up with the Chief of Police apparently....

fnegroni

Headhuunter wrote:

fnegroni wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

So my response remains to get ahead of the ASL or simply to RLJ (if there's nothing coming).

My advice is to do the exact opposite.

Well we each do what we need to do to feel safe.

Sure, I agree with you on that. I was only advising not to break the law.

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

Gobsmacking and appalling attitude.

I saw a plastic plod on a scaffolding bike tell a motorbike that he shouldn't be in the ASL. No ticket, no nothing. The bikers response? "You should be stopping the cyclists running red lights" missing the irony that he was saying that having jumped the light himself. Plank.

I've now taken to blocking the entrance to the ASL if there is a motorbike following me down the bike lane, provided there are no cyclists trying to filter through.

Headhuunter

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

Gobsmacking and appalling attitude.

I saw a plastic plod on a scaffolding bike tell a motorbike that he shouldn't be in the ASL. No ticket, no nothing. The bikers response? "You should be stopping the cyclists running red lights" missing the irony that he was saying that having jumped the light himself. Plank.

I've now taken to blocking the entrance to the ASL if there is a motorbike following me down the bike lane, provided there are no cyclists trying to filter through.

I think most moped and motorbike riders assume they are allowed into ASLs. When ASLs 1st appeared, most would stay out, but one by one they started to use them and now it's pretty muich standard practice and if there are no mopeds in it, then there's a black cab or white van or something.... they are utterly pointless without enforcement.

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

Gobsmacking and appalling attitude.

I saw a plastic plod on a scaffolding bike tell a motorbike that he shouldn't be in the ASL. No ticket, no nothing. The bikers response? "You should be stopping the cyclists running red lights" missing the irony that he was saying that having jumped the light himself. Plank.

I've now taken to blocking the entrance to the ASL if there is a motorbike following me down the bike lane, provided there are no cyclists trying to filter through.

I think most moped and motorbike riders assume they are allowed into ASLs. When ASLs 1st appeared, most would stay out, but one by one they started to use them and now it's pretty muich standard practice and if there are no mopeds in it, then there's a black cab or white van or something.... they are utterly pointless without enforcement.

You say that, but on the rare occassions that a copper is standing by an ASL all of a sudden there are no mopeds in it. They know exactly what they are doing, the problem is that they don't care and without enforcement they won't change.

I think (where possible) ASLs should be split so that one side (the left, usually) is for cycles and the other is for mopeds. That might at least stop them blocking the whole thing,

Soul Boy

We had City of London Police in our office the other day for a safety talk. This inevitably turned to the subject of ASL’s. Heres what he thought…..

Doesn’t like them and would scrap them.

As HeadHunter said: He did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine.

If you arrive when the lights are red, unless there is a broken line on the left hand lane allowing you access, you are effectively running a red light to enter the ASL box!!!! Regardless of whether on a bike, motorbike…

If a cycle lane approach to an ASL is denoted with a dotted line it doesn’t exclude traffic from entering it (its only advisory), so IF a motorcycle comes up the left hand lane and there is a broken line allowing entry into the ASL, motorbikes are legally allowed in (as they haven’t crossed a stop line).

If anyone arrives from the right while the lights are red and is confronted by a solid white line, if you enter the box you have run a red light.

No wonder enforcement of these boxes is a joke! :evil:

Stuey01

What really annoys me is when cars and vans either ignore it all together and stop at the second line, thus totally blocking it, or stop at the first line then spend the duration of the red light inching forward into it. F'ing idiots.

I'm not all that bothered by m'cylists using it, though I know they shouldn't. It is a bit annoying when there are so many I can't even get in the box, but this is rare on my route. One thing that really grinds my gears about motorcyclists is when they try to filter down the bike lane or between cars and get stuck, blocking a perfectly good filtering opportunity for a cyclist (me).

Headhuunter

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

Gobsmacking and appalling attitude.

I saw a plastic plod on a scaffolding bike tell a motorbike that he shouldn't be in the ASL. No ticket, no nothing. The bikers response? "You should be stopping the cyclists running red lights" missing the irony that he was saying that having jumped the light himself. Plank.

I've now taken to blocking the entrance to the ASL if there is a motorbike following me down the bike lane, provided there are no cyclists trying to filter through.

I think most moped and motorbike riders assume they are allowed into ASLs. When ASLs 1st appeared, most would stay out, but one by one they started to use them and now it's pretty muich standard practice and if there are no mopeds in it, then there's a black cab or white van or something.... they are utterly pointless without enforcement.

You say that, but on the rare occassions that a copper is standing by an ASL all of a sudden there are no mopeds in it. They know exactly what they are doing, the problem is that they don't care and without enforcement they won't change.

I think (where possible) ASLs should be split so that one side (the left, usually) is for cycles and the other is for mopeds. That might at least stop them blocking the whole thing,

For me the problem is that I more often than not approach junctions either filtering through the centre of 2 lanes of traffic or on the right (centre of the road). I don't like approaching along the gutter as if the lights change there's a higher risk of getting cut up or left hooked. Problem is that increasingly moped riders sit in the right hand edge of ASLs up against pedestrian islands and block access to it.

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I wrote to the City Police to ask why ASLs were never enforced and the reply came essentially saying that the police did not believe it was right that motorists receive a 60 quid fine and points on their licence whereas cyclists only get a 30 quid fine, hence no enforcement.

Gobsmacking and appalling attitude.

I saw a plastic plod on a scaffolding bike tell a motorbike that he shouldn't be in the ASL. No ticket, no nothing. The bikers response? "You should be stopping the cyclists running red lights" missing the irony that he was saying that having jumped the light himself. Plank.

I've now taken to blocking the entrance to the ASL if there is a motorbike following me down the bike lane, provided there are no cyclists trying to filter through.

I think most moped and motorbike riders assume they are allowed into ASLs. When ASLs 1st appeared, most would stay out, but one by one they started to use them and now it's pretty muich standard practice and if there are no mopeds in it, then there's a black cab or white van or something.... they are utterly pointless without enforcement.

You say that, but on the rare occassions that a copper is standing by an ASL all of a sudden there are no mopeds in it. They know exactly what they are doing, the problem is that they don't care and without enforcement they won't change.

I think (where possible) ASLs should be split so that one side (the left, usually) is for cycles and the other is for mopeds. That might at least stop them blocking the whole thing,

For me the problem is that I more often than not approach junctions either filtering through the centre of 2 lanes of traffic or on the right (centre of the road). I don't like approaching along the gutter as if the lights change there's a higher risk of getting cut up or left hooked. Problem is that increasingly moped riders sit in the right hand edge of ASLs up against pedestrian islands and block access to it.

Indeed, so if they were allowed to move forward into "their half" there would hopefully be enough room for you to scoot behind them to "your" half.

Anyway, it's all rather academic. It just galls me that the police have decided what laws to enforce based on how fair they think the penalty is. Last time I checked that was the job of parliament. Unbelievable if that's the publically given reason.