Should it be made illegal to ride up the left of a lorry?

Porgy

Craggers wrote:

most people are essentially like children or idiots and need guidance.

Exactly! My original point was that it was good for HGVs to have warning signs on the back and someone said:

Not cool - basically its saying screw you and 'I'm not responsible' to anyone unwise enough to filter the wrong side.

And yeah, I reckon you would definitely have been blamed if you got wiped out by that truck. This is the default position of the general public unfortunately....cyclists deserve everything that comes to them.

I'm not against the warning signs but signs just become part of the background eventually and lose any power they might once have had. It may be useful but it's not the solution. To be honest I don't have any answers other than to reiterate that cyclists should not be automatically getting blamed, nor should we assume anything until there is proper investigation, and that changing the balance of blame might ensure these cases do get properly examined.

easyboy

just thought i would put a slightly different twist to this thread,but still on topic
A Blind Spot is named because it is a position in the mirrors (6 on newer hgv's)where another road user is unable to be seen by the vehicles driver regardless of how many times the driver checks their mirrors
Also due to extreme length and turning circle of all lgv's, trucks turning left indicate left but have to position the vehicle as far to the right as is safe in order to turn left,the tighter the junction the wider he/she must place the vehicle,this leads to a following road user believing that the driver of the lgv has simply indicated incorrectly.
And yes it is well known in the haulage industry that tipper,skip and express delivery drivers are generally looked upon as the least likely to use profesional driving standards.
There are of course exceptions to the last statement.
Out of the incidents involving cyclists and trucks,how many have been judged to be the fault of the cyclist and how many the fault of the driver
One last point,how many cyclists were killed or injured by other road users

Jay dubbleU

I ride the same way as I drive a car - we don't have cycle lanes worth speaking about here - council doesn't like cyclists using road so all cycle tracks are well away from roads.

If I'm in a queue of traffic I wait behind the vehicle in front unless its a one way in which cast I filter to the right if the street is wide enough - I never filter to the left - not worth the risk

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

For congestion reasons alone I think HGV's of a certain tonnage should be banned from the capital from 7am - 11am and 3pm - 6pm.

That is a dangerous and IMHO stupid argument for at least 3 reasons

1. The same argument could be made to ban cyclists or any other group of road users. Its far easier to show lorries are providing an economic need than cyclists are

2. Banning lorries in these hours means there will be more of them out of those hours and they will be rushing to get their deliveries done in the limited hours available to them- thus making the roads far more dangerous to cyclists etc cycling outside these hours
3. Banning lorries in these hours does nothing to treat the problem, you are merely treating some of the symptoms. This will do nothing to make the roads safer other thasn in the limited hours of a ban, at the expense of the other17 hours a day.

The trouble with allowing HGV's into London is that with the increasing need to meet deliveries and the ever increasing construction work going on there is a growing demand for bigger, larger, heavier lorries to carry out those deliveries and it's the big ones that are proper scary and slow traffic down.

On Tuesday I saw a lorry so big it couldn't try right up Merton road (road works on one side meant that traffic had to pass on the other side of the road and the other side was full of traffic anyway). as it turned left the passenger had to get out and direct opposing traffic to move out of the way. When the lorry finally entered the road it was carrying the biggest digging contraption I've ever seen. This was in the morning when people are in a rush to work on a major road (A24 I think - whatever one has South Wimbledon on it) going into the city.

DonDaddyD

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

I'm to understand that other countries have their deliveries done by train. However our system is too old to handle this?

Also everyone, CleverPun had a point about staying behind, people have been killed by reversing lorries.

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

I've often wondered about this idea. I'm not sure you could ban all large HGVs as some eg delivering steel etc would be needed. However, Tescos etc could use smaller lorries, but this would mean:

a) more vehicles on road as would need more smaller lorries to replace the larger ones
b) Is the problem the lorries or the driving standards. More lorries albeit smaller does nothing to improve driving standards.
c) it would increase the price of goods in the shops as Tescos etc would have higher delivery costs which they would pass on to the consumers- this would increase inflation and have knock on effects

I'm to understand that other countries have their deliveries done by train. However our system is too old to handle this?

Also everyone, CleverPun had a point about staying behind, people have been killed by reversing lorries.

goco

spen666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

spen666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

+1 on the unenforceability, but a change to those motherf... ASL filter lanes would make a big difference. (sorry this is a bit stuck record) It's no wonder people keep filtering up the inside, particularly near junctions (where these accidents seem to usually happen), when there are big diagrams painted all over the road pretty much telling you to do so!Joe Average cyclist bimbling along is never going to get the message that nearside filtering is a bad idea if the road markings tell him/her the exact opposite. [/rant]

The diagrams tell you you CAN not that you should.

In the same way that a green light sdoesn't mean its safe to go, merely you can go if safe.

Its up to cyclists to use their common sense

Absolutely, hence the wording of the THINK! campaign - I think people tend to follow road markings at a slightly subconscious level rather than evaluating each situation on its merits.

However, is there ever a time when it is 'safe' to filter up the inside of an HGV when it could turn left? I'm not sure there is, or at least, it is a rare occurrence, and so I think that they do at least encourage the unsafe filtering, which seems a bit backwards for something that is intended to improve safety. Apologies for overuse of commas.

This is a judgement call. i do filter up the left hand side - when I consider it safe. - ie if I have seen lights turn to red as I arrive at rear of lorry.

People need to use their brainss and not rely on others to keep them safe by banning them doing things

Exactly! Depends on so many factors whether its safe to go up the inside - how long the lights will be red, how far in front of the HGV you can get, how much nearside space there is to get through. Unfortunately, cycling in london traffic you do have to filter, but I only do this when I KNOW I can get to the front (and some way in front) before the lights change.

Filtering up the inside of a left-indicating anything is stupid. We are all responsible for our own safety, and don't think legislation will make much difference.

jedster

I'm to understand that other countries have their deliveries done by train.

That's right DDD, every supermarket in German has a railway siding so they can take delivery of sausages and sauerkraut by rail car...

I'm with Spen on this, as I have said on another thread. If we started trying to ban trucks we are going to have to have a debate about which is more important to have on the roads - trucks or bikes. I don't think we will like the outcome of that discussion.

In terms of transhipping from big trucks to smaller trucks, of course you could do that. It would of course increase costs. It also would not necessarily improve safety. I get more worried by skip trucks and cement trucks than big artics in London. Why? Artic drivers are IME better and more considerate drivers.

If you need to build things in London you can't really avoid skip trucks and cement trucks... And you can't only deliver cement at night because, guess what, it sets!

On the other hand, all us commuter cyclists could use another mode of transport. Let's not go there...

J

sarajoy

jedster wrote:

I get more worried by skip trucks and cement trucks than big artics in London. Why? Artic drivers are IME better and more considerate drivers.

Seconded.

Also the skip trucks, flatbed workman's trucks - loose loads, often great big pipes/girders sticking out the back (I've had to duck before as one's skirted me then pulled back in), and huge frightening chompy wheels. I can feel my heartrate soar as soon as one begins to pass me - big heavy noisy rattley things.

el_presidente

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caPmw3OVQMo


interesting demonstraion of a truck's blindspot

Porgy

spen666 wrote:

That is a dangerous and IMHO stupid argument for at least 3 reasons

I reckon your O isn't nearly as H as you like to make out.

always_tyred

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

You have heard of railways, haven't you DDD?

easyboy

you cant use the rail system in the uk its totally useless
and in Germany the trains dont go to the supermarkets ,they go to the hubs or localised distribution depot for that city,and from the railhead it is trucked into town/city

The next time you want to ride/drive up the near-side of a truck ask yourself .........
Is the driver psychic
Can the driver see me
if the answer is I dont know,then dont do it

If i am not responsible for my own actions then who is

Imo there is no solution to this problem,for as long as people make irrational decisions there will always be dire consequences

Ipod what an invention,,the ability to make decisions based on the track playing.

DonDaddyD

Always Tyred wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

You have heard of railways, haven't you DDD?

The ones in England are too old to do the delivery jobs that the ones on the continent do.

I saw a train in france hauling two decks full on cars (like those car deliver trucks you get.

Gussio

In London, I wonder if freight could be moved about using the Tube system at night?

Clever Pun

easyboy wrote:

you cant use the rail system in the uk its totally useless
and in Germany the trains dont go to the supermarkets ,they go to the hubs or localised distribution depot for that city,and from the railhead it is trucked into town/city

The next time you want to ride/drive up the near-side of a truck ask yourself .........
Is the driver psychic
Can the driver see me
if the answer is I dont know,then dont do it

If i am not responsible for my own actions then who is

Imo there is no solution to this problem,for as long as people make irrational decisions there will always be dire consequences

Ipod what an invention,,the ability to make decisions based on the track playing.

I agree with everything you say until the highlighted bit... what do you mean by that?

listening to something wont affect your decision about which side of a lorry to go down now will it?

londonbairn

Why don't we ban all traffic completely and turn the roads into cyclist only highways?

Seriously, the most effective option is for cyclists to be able to judge risk better. I don't think many cyclists actually do judge risks well consistently. Many incidents could be prevented with more careful riding. I agree and when I see cops pulling over cyclists breaking red lights, handing out fines and what not.

A more ideal scenario for me, and more feasible than the HGV ban, would be training/roadshows/campaigns/whatever for cyclists, and go in with the shock angle - it works a lot for drivers who go on courses. Too much onus at the moment is being placed on drivers by the media/TfL etc when there should be equal focus on us TBH.

Clever Pun

Gussio wrote:

In London, I wonder if freight could be moved about using the Tube system at night?

it's closed so they can do repairs pretty much, plus getting stuff up in the centre... really?

Porgy

They closed the old London post office tube recently and now move everything round London by van. this was a short-sighted decision for purely economic reasons imo.

I believe that the Royal Mail also ended it's contracts with Network Rail for carrying post around the country - same reason - equally short sighted.

Porgy

Clever Pun wrote:

Gussio wrote:

In London, I wonder if freight could be moved about using the Tube system at night?

it's closed so they can do repairs pretty much, plus getting stuff up in the centre... really?

Routine maintenance mostly but also upgrades, replacing broken stuff and carrying out inspections - they only have from about 2 till 5 to do this - not long really.

Eau Rouge

DonDaddyD wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

You have heard of railways, haven't you DDD?

The ones in England are too old to do the delivery jobs that the ones on the continent do.

I saw a train in france hauling two decks full on cars (like those car deliver trucks you get.

They are currently in the process of increasing the clearence on all the bridges and the tunnel on the Winchester-Southampton train line (and almost certainly further up the line than Winchester) to allow them to run large trains down to the docks. Quite a lot of the traffic in and out of Southampton Docks is by train. Still, I suspect the freight train industry was left in just as bad a state as the passenger one was by the overly-hasty privatisation in the 90's.
Interestingly, the largest freight operator in the UK is Deutche Bahn, the German national rail compnay and it's internal divisions include one called "West" which is made up of the UK, France Spain and Portugal

spen666

Porgy wrote:

They closed the old London post office tube recently and now move everything round London by van. this was a short-sighted decision for purely economic reasons imo.

I believe that the Royal Mail also ended it's contracts with Network Rail for carrying post around the country - same reason - equally short sighted.

Short sighted maybe, but when Post Office is forced to compete on economic terms with other organisations- they have to chooose most cost effective way, not the best way for the environment

Porgy

spen666 wrote:

when Post Office is forced to compete on economic terms with other organisations- they have to chooose most cost effective way, not the best way for the environment

er...that's why it's short sighted.

Rail is the best way for society given the amount of congestion already in London - probably best for the customer as post is guaranteed to be in destination city by morning -It's the best way economically in long term given that oil is likely to become much more expensive in quite a short time; it's the best way in terms of value as most of the money spent carrying freight by rail is paid back to the government not a load of private operators.

And then there's the environment which you assumed was my only reason.

TommyEss

Not likely - that's when they do the majority of their repair works!!

jedster

My somewhat flippant comments on rail seem to have gone over people's heads but to be clear:

Practically nothing is really delivered by rail (exceptions would be bulk stuff like coal and iron ore, aggregates, etc) but freight can be trunked to a terminal where it is then DELIVERED by road. I.e., rail can get trucks off the motorway. It cannot get trucks out of our cities.

In practice, of course, our railways are not used that much for freight. The reason is quite simple, they are full with passenger trains. Seriously. It is right to prioritise passengers over freight (economically speaking). If we want to put more freight on the railways (which I think is a good idea broadly) then we need to to invest more in new lines, signalling etc to add capacity. In any case, it won't make any difference to the number of trucks DELIVERING into London.

J

Gussio

This makes a good read: http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/discussion/598/hgv-blind-spots-from-nozzer/

jedster

In London, I wonder if freight could be moved about using the Tube system at night?

Loook I realise this is an internet forum and all that but do people actually make any attempt to engage their brains before typing. Just think this through, you've got a load of (say) flat screen TVs in a warehouse which need to get delivered to (say) John Lewis on Oxford Street. Walk me through how that is going to work using the Tube...
Compare that to driving in a truck and backing it up to the loading ramp.

J

always_tyred

DonDaddyD wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Spen, how about banning those of a certain size from London altogether? Have depo stations on the outskirts and have smaller ones deliver in London.

You have heard of railways, haven't you DDD?

The ones in England are too old to do the delivery jobs that the ones on the continent do.

I saw a train in france hauling two decks full on cars (like those car deliver trucks you get.

Just pointing out that your proposed solution sounds very similar to rail - limited routes and drop offs in specified locations, goods to be ferried in smaller quantities to their eventual desstinations.

Therefore, you would find that it would import to road haulage some of the same delays and costs of rail haulage....

tarquin_foxglove

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

But with their blindspots the HGV driver could be attentive & still miss a cyclist.

Saw this clip on the news last night.

Lorry driver was unaware of the car because it was in a blindspot.

easyboy

Ipod what an invention,,the ability to make decisions based on the track playing.[/quote]

I agree with everything you say until the highlighted bit... what do you mean by that?

listening to something wont affect your decision about which side of a lorry to go down now will it?[/quote]

The company which i used to work conducted an in-house survey about music playing and work productivity,and found if they played faster beats per minute up-lifting tracks,then workers were happier and more productive,whereas if they played more relaxing music while the workforce was happy productivity was down
Strange but true
Also the decisions which were made differed to the type of music played