Legal advice needed

mcj78

Hi all,

Some tinker stole my bike last night from my office in work, I was there slightly later than usual so not many folk around & some contractors who were working on another floor had, unbeknownst to me, wedged the back door open providing a handy entrance/exit point for the thief (if it wasn't one of them in the first place :roll:). I was in an adjacent room & only noticed it was off when I went to ride home, so someone must have been snooping around whilst I was in the next room & taken their chance.
I've spoken to the 1 janitor who was on duty for the 3 large buildings which make up the complex I work in, and he didn't see anything, partially because the cctv in that area has apparently been out of commission for a while & i'm not entirely sure if he knew they were there in the first place.
Thus far i'm uninsured for the loss (unless my home contents policy change their minds) & the university doesn't have personal property cover, so seems the only thing I can do is pursue them for negligence for failing to ensure the building was properly secured at the time of the theft - any ideas how to go about this & ideas of any costs involved would be much appreciated. The door has a big sign on it stating it must not be left open at any time - the contractors would have seen this, are they liable instead?

Cheers!
John

alan_sherman

You are going to try to sue your employer for a stolen bike?


Hahahahahahahhahahaha

Check you contract for liability for personal items at work - bet there is something about it in there exonerating the employer for all personal goods.

The cost of a commute bike vs your salary? Hmmm.

timb64

Search extensively on Fleabay for your bike and if you find it inform the police.I was able to recover a bike stolen from my wife last year.The guy involved obviously has a history of trading stolen bikes and it's gauling that neither the police or fleabay are able to take action to stop him.
Good Luck.

mcj78

alan sherman wrote:

You are going to try to sue your employer for a stolen bike?


Hahahahahahahhahahaha

Check you contract for liability for personal items at work - bet there is something about it in there exonerating the employer for all personal goods.

The cost of a commute bike vs your salary? Hmmm.

Wow, thanks for the helpful response Rumpole - i'm surprised you didn't charge me £200 for that gem of advice, given you're obviously a busy legal mind. Or do you just come on here to wind-up people who've had their bikes stolen?

If they have been negligent in faililng to secure the building (by allowing contractors to work outside normal hours unsupervised) i've been given indication I may have a case, but that only came from an internal source who deals with insurance claims against the company, so you're probably right? But if I even thought about it i'd be fired on the spot of course so best just accept it...

tim64 - I've been scanning ebay etc. since last night, if it pops up anywhere i'll be right onto it, cheers!

John

jrduquemin

Sorry to hear about your bike theft, what kind of bike was it? If you give a reasonably good description on here, some of the forum users might keep an eye out on the 'bay also....

mcj78

jrduquemin wrote:

Sorry to hear about your bike theft, what kind of bike was it? If you give a reasonably good description on here, some of the forum users might keep an eye out on the 'bay also....

Cheers mate, i've posted it inthe "stolen" section already http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12686362 so hopefully if it pops up anywhere someon'll see it - it's a small Dolan Mythos, carbon fibre frame/forks/post, mainly 105, Deda stem & bars, white Selle Italia XO seat & white deda bar tape & some ano. gold chainring bolts & bottle bolts. Was just getting back into the daily commute as well!

J

mroli

To be honest - here your best bet may be to get your employer to go against the Contractor - they were the ones who left the door open and I would have thought that their contract with the employer would have said something about taking all reasonable precautions to ensure that the facilities they were working in were safe and secure at all times. Have you talked to your employer about this?

Bobbinogs

Hi mcj78, sorry to hear about the bike. I just wondered where the bike was being stored? I looked through your post but couldn't see it. Was it a designated storage area or more a case of you finding somewhere handy to put your bike, like a changing room?? That may affect you chances of negligence by showing that the employer had a duty of care for the storage provided.

It might also be worth pressing your employer a bit, not sure who you asked about policy cover. I would ask for a copy of it just to check the detail (it could be that you have been given bad advice or have an employer who isn't keen on employees claiming in case it affects the 'no claims'). Worth a shot but try to maintain a constructive stance with your employer, after all they are not the real scrotes in this case.

mcj78

Bobbinogs wrote:

Hi mcj78, sorry to hear about the bike. I just wondered where the bike was being stored? I looked through your post but couldn't see it. Was it a designated storage area or more a case of you finding somewhere handy to put your bike, like a changing room?? That may affect you chances of negligence by showing that the employer had a duty of care for the storage provided.

It might also be worth pressing your employer a bit, not sure who you asked about policy cover but it might be worth asking for a copy of it just to check the detail (it could be that you have been given bad advice or have an employer who isn't keen on employees claiming in case it affects the 'no claims'.

Hi mate,

It was stored in an office just off our main lab, I keep it there as the bike rack out the front of the building has a bad reputation for losing bikes, even in broad daylight - I know a few folk who've lost bikes there. The spot it was stolen from is fairly innocuous - you can't see there's a bike sitting there unless your standing 2 feet away from it so someone's been definitely been snooping... and I was in another small room off the lab at the time, no more than 15 feet away albeit behind a door :x

The insurance & risk manager I spoke to told me the Uni. doesn't have any private property liability in their insurance cover, I then pointed out that technically it's still University property as it was purchased through cyclescheme and that hasn't finished yet... he then told me even for uni. property their excess is £50k :shock: but then added if I felt there was a case of negligence on their part, the uni might compensate upon receipt of a strongly worded letter from a solicitor to save any further hassle, i.e. court.

Feck knows how it'll pan out, i'll keep you posted on here!
John

mcj78

mroli wrote:

To be honest - here your best bet may be to get your employer to go against the Contractor - they were the ones who left the door open and I would have thought that their contract with the employer would have said something about taking all reasonable precautions to ensure that the facilities they were working in were safe and secure at all times. Have you talked to your employer about this?

Yep, i've thought about this too - still at early stages so it's another good option... i'll be making some enquiries over the next few days as to the best course of action.

Cheers,
John

bigmat

I'm assuming you left it unlocked if insurers refusing cover. So you basically left £1,000+ of bike in a public(?) place unlocked and you're surprised its not there anymore? I'd say you have little hope of a payout. Your best bet would be if you could establish that it was left in a secure, private area, in which case you might have an argument against your insurers. Doubt you have a claim against employer, you left it there, presumably unlocked, not their look out. Claim against contractors? What duty do they owe you? Bad luck I'm afraid, if I was you I'd focus on insurers, check small print of policy, usually if you can say it was taken by force / deception then may be cover.

ps. I leave my bike unlocked in a public gym most days so I am in no way being critical here, main difference is mine is 15 years old and has a resale value of around £0!

Paul Smenis

Establish if the door was a fire door and if so these are not allowed to be wedged open at any time during the day for obvious reasons. This may help your case with your employer who may put pressure on the contractors. Your employers must have a fire risk assessment in writing that must cover all possible fire risks, and will have something in writing stating that fire doors must not be wedged open.Hope this may help.

mcj78

MatHammond wrote:

I'm assuming you left it unlocked if insurers refusing cover. So you basically left £1,000+ of bike in a public(?) place unlocked and you're surprised its not there anymore? I'd say you have little hope of a payout.

Not public; within a private office, which is within a private lab, which is within an allegedly "secure" building. On another note there are enough radiation sources / seriously harmful chemicals in the building to require a small town to be evacuated if anyone got hold of them with the intent of mischief, just this time they were more interested in my bike... could always offer a local rag an exclusive under the "what if it had been a terrorist?" banner for the cost of a replacement...

MatHammond wrote:

Claim against contractors? What duty do they owe you?

Pretty sure they have a duty of care not to leave the doors of a "secure" building wedged open unattended for god knows how long, especially when there's an enormous sign on the door stating it must not be left open at any time for any reason... if I got caught doing it i'd get my arse severely kicked, twice as hard if it's at night after security had locked up, why shouldn't they?

MatHammond wrote:

ps. I leave my bike unlocked in a public gym most days so I am in no way being critical here, main difference is mine is 15 years old and has a resale value of around £0!

I know where you're coming from - i'll be buying a nice old rusty gate of a bike next & chaining it to my leg :x

J

Stewie Griffin

Paul Smenis wrote:

Establish if the door was a fire door and if so these are not allowed to be wedged open at any time during the day for obvious reasons. This may help your case with your employer who may put pressure on the contractors. Your employers must have a fire risk assessment in writing that must cover all possible fire risks, and will have something in writing stating that fire doors must not be wedged open.Hope this may help.

Fire Marshall at work told us that you are allowed to wedge fire doors open as long as someone is in the room, if you leave it then you have to shut it. May or may not help.

Scrumple

legally - no chance.

at all.

don't waste time trying.

Best and only bet is to WRITE (no calls) to the uni and plead for recompense.

dilemna

mcj78 wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

I'm assuming you left it unlocked if insurers refusing cover. So you basically left £1,000+ of bike in a public(?) place unlocked and you're surprised its not there anymore? I'd say you have little hope of a payout.

Not public; within a private office, which is within a private lab, which is within an allegedly "secure" building. On another note there are enough radiation sources / seriously harmful chemicals in the building to require a small town to be evacuated if anyone got hold of them with the intent of mischief, just this time they were more interested in my bike... could always offer a local rag an exclusive under the "what if it had been a terrorist?" banner for the cost of a replacement...

MatHammond wrote:

Claim against contractors? What duty do they owe you?

Pretty sure they have a duty of care not to leave the doors of a "secure" building wedged open unattended for god knows how long, especially when there's an enormous sign on the door stating it must not be left open at any time for any reason... if I got caught doing it i'd get my ars* severely kicked, twice as hard if it's at night after security had locked up, why shouldn't they?

MatHammond wrote:

ps. I leave my bike unlocked in a public gym most days so I am in no way being critical here, main difference is mine is 15 years old and has a resale value of around £0!

I know where you're coming from - i'll be buying a nice old rusty gate of a bike next & chaining it to my leg :x

J

Sorry about the loss of your bike, but you are just dreaming now. There is no duty of care such that you speculate. I should imagine that you did not have your employer's permission to park your bike inside the office. A risk assessment of your parking arangements might conclude that your bike should be outside in the designated bike racks. A fire audit might conclude the same. It may even be viewed as a hazard that other employees might be at risk of injuring themselves falling over it. How about in an emergency or fire? I think your are on a sticky wicket and your chances of re-imbursement slim. What sort of locks do you use? Not cable locks ?

You can try writing to the University making a case for recompense as you purchased the bike as part of the bike to work scheme, but legally there is no reason for them to compensate you. The C2W scheme is a financial agreement which I'm sure advises you for the need for insurance should the item subject to it be stolen or irrepairably damaged.

mcj78

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies; I know it's a long shot & probably my best bet would be to try & guilt the department into reimbursing me or ask them to write off the remainder of the cyclescheme arrangement, i'll see what transpires... if they don't i'll torch the place next time I see the back doors left open after hours & see if they're insured for that. :P (joke!)

Cheers,
john

zanes

I'm assuming you've checked with uni security to make sure they haven't moved it to their lock-up area?

Also, taking a bike to a uni without insurance?? Are you mad???

Bunneh

Had a few bikes nicked from outside friends houses as a kid, it's so damned upsetting, especially when you know you can't afford a new one. Last time my bike was stolen a friend of mine gave me his ANCIENT Reynolds bike, tatty thing, hardly worked but the fun I had rebuilding it was immense.

Anyway, I'm derailing. Hope you get your bike back or at least some compensation. Speak to someone who has knowledge of it, be nice, flutter your eyelashes and you never know!

mcj78

zanes wrote:

I'm assuming you've checked with uni security to make sure they haven't moved it to their lock-up area?

Also, taking a bike to a uni without insurance?? Are you mad???

Yeah checked with security first in case they'd seen the bike in the office & moved it, even if it was insured it'd be difficult to claim as my contents insurance only covers thefts like this if the bike had been taken by force, or the building had been broken into... oh well, i'll put it down to experience & get a new one next year... and not bring it to work.

jenine

its simple....this willl only work if you havent give ur home insurance company ur serial number.... just wait a few weeks insure it, get a lock and snap it...ring police say ur bike was stolen (make sure you say a area with out to many people cctv etc....clame on insurance get a new bike..... not legal i know but the insurance company's are money grabbing scum so its ok.... :roll:

zanes

jenine wrote:

its simple....this willl only work if you havent give ur home insurance company ur serial number.... just wait a few weeks insure it, get a lock and snap it...ring police say ur bike was stolen (make sure you say a area with out to many people cctv etc....clame on insurance get a new bike..... not legal i know but the insurance company's are money grabbing scum so its ok.... :roll:

Promoting insurance fraud on a public forum? Who's a clever boy? *slow clap*

cee

i just signed my c2w contract yesterday and can say for certain that there is a clause that says I am liable for the cost even if the bike is stolen....hence the requirement for insurance...

As said, I reckon your only hope is someone who takes pity on you in the department and decides to recompense against the terms of the contract..

rbleightonbuzzard

mm, door jammed opened, CCTV knocked out, Guard didn't see anything....

Inside job, 100%, start interrogating your work colleagues,

On a serious note, have you got the link to the stolen bikes posting?

passout

I'd focus on the insurance company. Why won't they pay out? Either your bike is insured against theft or it isn't? You didn't tell them that you left the bike unlocked did you? Put your energies there first. I wouldn't go legal over this myself.

rbleightonbuzzard

Just seen the link, ignore me.

Paul Smenis

you mentioned about insurance applicable if building broken into. The Theft Act 1968 states that a person commits burglary when he enters a building or part of a building as a trespasser with the intent to steal. I would have thought the circumstances you describe would fall in to that definition, discuss with insurance company. Good luck.

bigmat

@ jenine - even better, we could all claim for "stolen" bikes and get a new one each from our insurers - lovely! :roll:

I don't think the Theft Act is relevant here, its your insurance policy wording which as suspected requires force to have been used. Unfortunately no lock and open door means no force required. Not sure how you'd get round that. Horrible situation, I fully sympathise but if the only solution is to make a fraudulent policy claim (which is illegal, potentially voids any other claims on your insurance and could impact on your ability to even get insurance in future - so best not get caught out) you're probably doing the right thing in taking this one on the chin.

mcj78

jenine wrote:

its simple....this willl only work if you havent give ur home insurance company ur serial number.... just wait a few weeks insure it, get a lock and snap it...ring police say ur bike was stolen (make sure you say a area with out to many people cctv etc....clame on insurance get a new bike..... not legal i know but the insurance company's are money grabbing scum so its ok.... :roll:

Already informed the police & had called the insurance company before I discovered they wouldn't pay out as someone had left the door open... then in readign the small print, it transpires any single item of personal property is covered up to a maximum of £1500... wait for it... with the exception of bikes, which are only insured up to a maximum of £250 unless insured separately, pretty sure the policy excess is more than that...

So it basically comes down to a combination of my own stupidity for not making sure it was insured to cover any eventuality, my employers apparent lax attitude to security procedures and bad luck that a combination of both of these have left me bikeless (well, road-bike-less).

There are possibly some of you sitting there (probably unaware) in similar circumstances, so i'll take this opprtunity to ask you all to please double-check all the small print in your insurance policies, if you keep the bike in your office etc. in work - double check their insurance liability in case the worst happens, buy a great big lock & attach the bike to something immovable as soon as your arse leaves the seat. Oh, and if anyone even looks at your bike, bludgeon them to death immediately. A second big lock may be useful for this purpose.

John

Tom_d100

mcj78 wrote:

jenine wrote:

its simple....this willl only work if you havent give ur home insurance company ur serial number.... just wait a few weeks insure it, get a lock and snap it...ring police say ur bike was stolen (make sure you say a area with out to many people cctv etc....clame on insurance get a new bike..... not legal i know but the insurance company's are money grabbing scum so its ok.... :roll:

Already informed the police & had called the insurance company before I discovered they wouldn't pay out as someone had left the door open... then in readign the small print, it transpires any single item of personal property is covered up to a maximum of £1500... wait for it... with the exception of bikes, which are only insured up to a maximum of £250 unless insured separately, pretty sure the policy excess is more than that...

So it basically comes down to a combination of my own stupidity for not making sure it was insured to cover any eventuality, my employers apparent lax attitude to security procedures and bad luck that a combination of both of these have left me bikeless (well, road-bike-less).

There are possibly some of you sitting there (probably unaware) in similar circumstances, so i'll take this opprtunity to ask you all to please double-check all the small print in your insurance policies, if you keep the bike in your office etc. in work - double check their insurance liability in case the worst happens, buy a great big lock & attach the bike to something immovable as soon as your ars* leaves the seat. Oh, and if anyone even looks at your bike, bludgeon them to death immediately. A second big lock may be useful for this purpose.

John

Hi

I think this needs a bit more thought before you give up on this.

Do you know the name of the contractor? What evidence do you have that the contractor left the door open? Do you know this first hand - did you see them do it?

Provided you know these things, it is worth a couple of letters to the contractor I think. The contractor will owe a duty to close the door. It is at least arguable that the duty would extend to encompass those such as you who were likely to suffer from items being stolen if the door wasn't shut.

You're claim, being under 5k, would likely fall into the small claims track. It could be pursued for very little cost.

T

mcj78

Tom_d100 wrote:

Hi

I think this needs a bit more thought before you give up on this.

Do you know the name of the contractor? What evidence do you have that the contractor left the door open? Do you know this first hand - did you see them do it?

Provided you know these things, it is worth a couple of letters to the contractor I think. The contractor will owe a duty to close the door. It is at least arguable that the duty would extend to encompass those such as you who were likely to suffer from items being stolen if the door wasn't shut.

You're claim, being under 5k, would likely fall into the small claims track. It could be pursued for very little cost.

T

Hi Tom,

Yep, I had a visit from the chief security officer yesterday afternoon & he's been in contact with the contractors to get thier side of the story, didn't seem too amused I must say (probably due to the nature of some of the research going on in the department which requires firm security procedures...). I'm remaining optimistic but wouldn't be surprised if it all came to nothing. Maybe they'll threaten to terminate their large refurbishment contract unless they compensate me. Probably not, fingers crossed something turns up though, especially as commuting on the bike is about the only exercise i'm getting at the moment due to some erroneous cartilage floating around in my knee, no running/football/badminton etc. or anything that puts strain on it - even walking for a few hours kills it!

J