Traffic light etiquette. Don't stop in front of me

gbsahne001

Oddjob62 wrote:

If it's just a van and he's not turning i'd stick behind him and draft him past the cyclists.

and if it's a bus or lorry, so much the better

roger_merriman

If I arrive at the lights first, then I'll tend to be centre of the road, I have no problems holding my line and making van wait until I've cleared the junction.

This said if I arrived after I'm unlikely to filter to the van, I try to make sure I do make each cycle of the lights but I don't feel the need to be first at the lights.

while big green is a heavy old lump, together we tend to be quick off the mark, thus along as I'm not boxed in. by the time other bikes have got clipped in, I'm happy plodding down the road.

in fact bikes who pull in front etc can be useful as the rest of the traffic may not have room to pass them so I get a nice empty road for a little while.

lost_in_thought

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

Aidy

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

I kinda get that - and there's probably a lot of British attitude involved (I do hate queue jumpers).

Sorta the difference though, is - bikes are relatively easy to overtake in a car, provided there aren't masses of them all over the road. I try to make a point of moving over after leaving the lights, to make myself as passable as possible (although I too, will wait behind HGVs).

Waiting behind another, slower, cyclist can be annoying because it's hard to overtake them without inconveniencing the cars trying to get past us both.

shouldbeinbed

DonDaddyD wrote:

I could have lost my calm with a few cyclist in recent times.

I've overtaken them at speed, they can't keep up, its clear they can't keep up. They tried and failed.

I stop at the lights, I've taken up my position. The person who isn't as fast as me pootles upto me, around me and parks their bike just in front of mine.

Lights go green, they struggle to push off wobbling all the way to a total of 8mph. I now have to struggle to get past them negotiating them, slow speed wobble and oncoming cars.


WHY, WHY DO THIS, WHY!?

CLEARLY I'm faster than you. CLEARLY I'm going to need to overtake you again. WHY WHY WHY MUST YOU WHY!?

Just f*cking wait in the f*cking queue, or beside me. But to park your bike infront of me, I may have to hit you with my carbon soled shoe to point out how rude you're being.

Honestly, its just good manners, surely.

I'm reading this in a Jeremy Clarkson James Martin voice. that could be written by any car driver of most cyclists.

Porgy

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

There are times though when it pays to be in front - especially if there's some issue with the junction that most motorists won't know about - and in my experience cyclists almost always move off far quicker than motor vehicles. The number of times i've been stuck behind a driver who's not paying attention - and with limited time to get through the junction - or lazy cab drivers who only go fast when there's money or possibiltity in f***ing up someone else invloved. :roll:

These days, though, i only tend to put myself in front if there's a good reason.

Porgy

shouldbeinbed wrote:

I'm reading this in a Jeremy Clarkson James Martin voice. that could be written by any car driver of most cyclists.

While I agree regarding the terms in which DDD voiced his frustrations - there is an issue here.

My experience is that as a cyclist who's more comfortable at a moderate speed it can be hazardous to have to overtake these slow wobblers at every junction.

Sometimes I take the attitude that I can stay behind them - but a three hour commute is really not an option.

It'd be better, surely, if the slow wobblers - who also tend to run red lights whenever possible - would just realise that they have nothing to gain by pushing themselves to the fore at every red light (usually going through the red when it's clear) and are creating an xtra unnecessary hazard for the rest of us.

roger_merriman

Porgy wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

I'm reading this in a Jeremy Clarkson James Martin voice. that could be written by any car driver of most cyclists.

While I agree regarding the terms in which DDD voiced his frustrations - there is an issue here.

My experience is that as a cyclist who's more comfortable at a moderate speed it can be hazardous to have to overtake these slow wobblers at every junction.

Sometimes I take the attitude that I can stay behind them - but a three hour commute is really not an option.

It'd be better, surely, if the slow wobblers - who also tend to run red lights whenever possible - would just realise that they have nothing to gain by pushing themselves to the fore at every red light (usually going through the red when it's clear) and are creating an xtra unnecessary hazard for the rest of us.

I don't really have a problem with them, they are so slow to pull off, gives plenty of time to pull past and ahead, urban areas are like that. people do dumb selfish moves, the wobblers tend to be kerb huggers any way.

Wallace1492

shouldbeinbed wrote:

I'm reading this in a Jeremy Clarkson James Martin voice. that could be written by any car driver of most cyclists.

Agreed, and this is where I have some sympathy with the car/van/bus drivers. Why filter past them at lights if the road is narrow, they will only want to get by, perhaps trying to squeeze past where there is not much room. Usually i just sit in line of the traffic, even if there is an ASL.

I have had slower cyclists go past me at lights, I just power up my legs and show them my class.

W1

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

Which is fine and admirable, but whenever I do that the pootlers push to the front, set of at glacial speed and hold the van, following traffic and me up! At least at the front you can make a quick getaway. Waiting in the traffic only works if all the cyclists do it - otherwise you end up going at the pace of the pootler who's pushed furthest to the front.

If it's a big wide road with easy overtaking opportunities I agree - safer to be within the traffic in my opinion.

londonbairn

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

+1

DonDaddyD

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

that's all well and good but for two things:

1. The ASL is at the front of a crossing and runs the length of the crossing. So it's not wrong to be infront of a vehicle.

2. When in front of a vehicle at a crossing, move off, move left, let them pass.

kurako

DonDaddyD wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

that's all well and good but for two things:

1. The ASL is at the front of a crossing and runs the length of the crossing. So it's not wrong to be infront of a vehicle.

2. When in front of a vehicle at a crossing, move off, move left, let them pass.

Just becuase the ASL stretches all the way across the road you don't need to use it. I rarely do and seems most of the more experienced cyclists have come to the same conclusion. If someone has passed you once and is likely to do it again then what's the point in going past them just to save a few yards at the lights?

I used to take the road between Tower Bridge and Limehouse Link with all the big trucks. The road is 2 lanes but pretty tight and its friggin scary even when they pass with consideration. I worked out it was safest just stop behind them unless there were clearly going to get held up in a huge jam. On occasions I'd even get one pull up behind me at lights and I'd pull the bike in to the side and wave him through. Now I take a different route.

DonDaddyD

Kurako wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

And yet we cyclists do this on a daily basis to drivers... and wonder why they get fed up with us after they've overtaken us for the 5th time....


I stop behind the traffic if I know it's going straight past me. If it's an HGV and there's even a chance it might pass me, I'll stay behind it even if it means waiting halfway down a queue.

that's all well and good but for two things:

1. The ASL is at the front of a crossing and runs the length of the crossing. So it's not wrong to be infront of a vehicle.

2. When in front of a vehicle at a crossing, move off, move left, let them pass.

Just becuase the ASL stretches all the way across the road you don't need to use it.

You are right, you don't need to use it. When I can't or don't think I can or simply don't facing making it to the ASL I won't. I'll simply wait in traffic. But the ASL is there to be used if you can.

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

_Brun_

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

Yes.

It's much easier to justify being in primary if you're doing 25mph behind another car/van/bus. The alternative is being at the front doing 25mph, followed by a queue of enraged motorists who think you're holding them all up.

Oddjob62

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

I think the main thing that "angers" drivers is the fact that they arrived first, but then have to wait for someone slower who arrived later and just "pushed in front". If they arrive after, then the old British queueing mentality kicks in and they are more likely to shrug it off.

Bassjunkieuk

_Brun_ wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

Yes.

It's much easier to justify being in primary if you're doing 25mph behind another car/van/bus. The alternative is being at the front doing 25mph, followed by a queue of enraged motorists who think you're holding them all up.

+1, un-fortunately I don't think there is 1 blanket rule that can be applied to all situations when approaching traffic lights.
Even this morning I can remember certain points where I hung back as I didn't see any benefit of attempting to get to the front of a queue. Normally this is me just doing a quick risk-assessment of the traffic and deciding what's best - is it really worth pushing to the front when I can see that vehicle indicating left/right? What about the others riders around me (didn't happen much this morning as I left later then normal)

Generally I know I can get away from lights with a fair turn of speed (a bit less so recently as I've upped the gearing, so I'm more like Bowser then Koopa Troopa!) so I know I can generally be away from the lights and up to cruising speed by the time I'm across the junction.

FWIW DDD, if I do find you ahead of me at a set of lights down the drag strip, I'll wait behind - giving you a head start should make the chase more fun ;-)

nation

Personally I don't use ASLs unless I'm not going to make the next sequence of lights.

The exception to this is dangerous junctions. There was one on my old commute where the road split into three lanes (left only, straight ahead only, straight ahead/right). I was always going straight ahead, but there was always a hell of a scrum as drivers tried to drive up the middle lane and then either force their way into the queues to turn left or right, or just turn left or right from the middle lane.

In a situation like that, taking primary just gets you cut up or stuck between cars trying to force you out of the lane they're trying to merge into, so the ASL is the safer option.

dvdfoz

nation wrote:

Personally I don't use ASLs unless I'm not going to make the next sequence of lights.

The exception to this is dangerous junctions. There was one on my old commute where the road split into three lanes (left only, straight ahead only, straight ahead/right). I was always going straight ahead, but there was always a hell of a scrum as drivers tried to drive up the middle lane and then either force their way into the queues to turn left or right, or just turn left or right from the middle lane.

In a situation like that, taking primary just gets you cut up or stuck between cars trying to force you out of the lane they're trying to merge into, so the ASL is the safer option.

Similar to turning to Rotherhithe tunnel from Commercial Rd, left lane filters to the tunnel, middle straight on, and all the impatient drivers who've jumped past the tunnel queue with a view to cutting in at the lights.
Fun that the lights turing left turn green before the others, so end up unavoidably sitting in front of traffic wanting to turn left.

Personally I just sit at the back of whatever traffic is there, only tend to filter if the roads are dog slow.

Bassjunkieuk

dvdfoz wrote:

Similar to turning to Rotherhithe tunnel from Commercial Rd, left lane filters to the tunnel, middle straight on, and all the impatient drivers who've jumped past the tunnel queue with a view to cutting in at the lights.
Fun that the lights turing left turn green before the others, so end up unavoidably sitting in front of traffic wanting to turn left.

Personally I just sit at the back of whatever traffic is there, only tend to filter if the roads are dog slow.

It's precisely that reason why I love cycling to Docklands vs. driving, getting south of the river is a choice between Rotherhithe and Tower Bridge and it pi$$es me off when in the car and some twunt then tries to push in after you've been patiently sat in the queue for 15 minutes!

holybinch

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

It's precisely that reason why I love cycling to Docklands vs. driving, getting south of the river is a choice between Rotherhithe and Tower Bridge and it pi$$es me off when in the car and some twunt then tries to push in after you've been patiently sat in the queue for 15 minutes!

How I hear you.
Morning trying to get on the M4 at Chiswick roundabout.
F**king t**ts trying to jump the queue.

Working in London and being able to cycle has done marvels for my blood pressure

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

Yes.

It's much easier to justify being in primary if you're doing 25mph behind another car/van/bus. The alternative is being at the front doing 25mph, followed by a queue of enraged motorists who think you're holding them all up.

Guess what I disagree. And with all the other points that plus one this.

Firstly, not that many people do 25mph. I choose not to in traffic or when drafting (stopping distance makes it unsafe). So applying a speed to the point is moot and unrealistic.

Secondly, when in the primary, stopped in front of a vehicle its not the speed you can eventually achieve that pisses drivers off. It's how fast you accelerate. Car's accelerate faster than bikes.

So to go back to my ASL point. When in the primary whether in the ASL or not, where safe I eventually move over to the left to allow cars to pass me at a safe distance. I personally prefer to do this from the ASL and not in a queue of traffic.

kurako

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

Yes.

It's much easier to justify being in primary if you're doing 25mph behind another car/van/bus. The alternative is being at the front doing 25mph, followed by a queue of enraged motorists who think you're holding them all up.

Guess what I disagree. And with all the other points that plus one this.

Firstly, not that many people do 25mph. I choose not to in traffic or when drafting (stopping distance makes it unsafe). So applying a speed to the point is moot and unrealistic.

Secondly, when in the primary, stopped in front of a vehicle its not the speed you can eventually achieve that pisses drivers off. It's how fast you accelerate. Car's accelerate faster than bikes.

So to go back to my ASL point. When in the primary whether in the ASL or not, where safe I eventually move over to the left to allow cars to pass me at a safe distance. I personally prefer to do this from the ASL and not in a queue of traffic.

If you look at a queue of cars moving off from the lights you will see that the ones at the front accelerate faster than the ones further back. Its sort of like a concertina as the line stretches away from lights and compresses as it stops again. It stands to reason that if you are at the front the cars will be accelerating faster than those further back.

Also people being people, they will get p'd off if they have to overtake the same person over and over. This leads to people doing dumb sh!t and dumb sh!t causes accidents. Most ( but not all ) will give you respect and space if you wait further back and don't give them the impression you are trying to 'push in'.

Bassjunkieuk

Kurako wrote:

If you look at a queue of cars moving off from the lights you will see that the ones at the front accelerate faster than the ones further back. Its sort of like a concertina as the line stretches away from lights and compresses as it stops again. It stands to reason that if you are at the front the cars will be accelerating faster than those further back.

Well put, I think the important thing to remember is that whilst we all demonize drivers it's not in their interests to go racing off from the lights when they don't have a clear road ahead. All they'd end up doing is rear-ending the car ahead of them!

I know you could argue you never get a really clear road in London but some people do insist on racing across a junction.......consequently as Kurako points out so well whilst you might not be able to pull off straight up to 20-25mph at least your giving yourself a bit more time to get to speed and not stressing about "holding" up a car as the car behind can only really drive off as fast as you/the car ahead of you.

Besides sitting 2nd or 3rd in a queue of traffic still means you'll get through on the first light change and bets waiting 3 or 4 changes if your in a car :-)

londonbairn

I don't use ASLs much either, because of the reasonings lost_in_thought posted, and also they tend to be over populated with cyclists and motorcyclists. The only reason I would use one is the same as nation's.

I just swallow my pride, sit behind safely, then overtake safely later on.

Porgy

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

[Well put, I think the important thing to remember is that whilst we all demonize drivers it's not in their interests to go racing off from the lights when they don't have a clear road ahead. All they'd end up doing is rear-ending the car ahead of them!

And there you have the behaviour of south east london drivers in a nutshell.

DonDaddyD

Kurako wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

_Brun_ wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also is waiting in front of a vehicle in the ASL any different to waiting behind said vehicle in traffic but ultimately in front of yet another vehicle?

Yes.

It's much easier to justify being in primary if you're doing 25mph behind another car/van/bus. The alternative is being at the front doing 25mph, followed by a queue of enraged motorists who think you're holding them all up.

Guess what I disagree. And with all the other points that plus one this.

Firstly, not that many people do 25mph. I choose not to in traffic or when drafting (stopping distance makes it unsafe). So applying a speed to the point is moot and unrealistic.

Secondly, when in the primary, stopped in front of a vehicle its not the speed you can eventually achieve that pisses drivers off. It's how fast you accelerate. Car's accelerate faster than bikes.

So to go back to my ASL point. When in the primary whether in the ASL or not, where safe I eventually move over to the left to allow cars to pass me at a safe distance. I personally prefer to do this from the ASL and not in a queue of traffic.

If you look at a queue of cars moving off from the lights you will see that the ones at the front accelerate faster than the ones further back. Its sort of like a concertina as the line stretches away from lights and compresses as it stops again. It stands to reason that if you are at the front the cars will be accelerating faster than those further back.

Also people being people, they will get p'd off if they have to overtake the same person over and over. This leads to people doing dumb sh!t and dumb sh!t causes accidents. Most ( but not all ) will give you respect and space if you wait further back and don't give them the impression you are trying to 'push in'.

In my experience it makes no difference. I'm not saying or advocating that I always make my way to the ASL. Just that my justifications for getting there and taking up a more central position in the road are different. As both a cyclist and a driver I don't see it as making any difference where in the queue I am found. To some motorists a bicycle is a bicycle.

As a motorist when stopped at the lights I actually prefer if the cyclist did take up a more central position ahead of my car in the ASL. I hate it when cyclists are to the left or right, it is harder to judge their speed and their intentions. Stay infront of my car, move over to the left and when I clear the junction I will overtake with at a safe distance. I do the same when on a bike wherever I am in traffic.

rjsterry

I'll tell you what is very definitely bad traffic light etiquette: riding into the back of someone who is bothering to stop at a red light. Even more so when your riding a disc braked MTB that should be able to stop on a penny, and the guy in front is a roadie with rim brakes - if he (me) can stop in time, so can you! :evil:. For some reason I was remarkably Zen about this, and told the (admittedly very apologetic) to not worry about it (!?). Luckily only a bit of skin taken off (somehow without even snagging my arm warmer) - glad he wasn't driving a car.

DonDaddyD

rjsterry wrote:

I'll tell you what is very definitely bad traffic light etiquette: riding into the back of someone who is bothering to stop at a red light. Even more so when your riding a disc braked MTB that should be able to stop on a penny, and the guy in front is a roadie with rim brakes - if he (me) can stop in time, so can you! :evil:. For some reason I was remarkably Zen about this, and told the (admittedly very apologetic) to not worry about it (!?). Luckily only a bit of skin taken off (somehow without even snagging my arm warmer) - glad he wasn't driving a car.

This.

If I have someone drafting me, my hand goes out to get them back off as I will be slowing down.

If they've just outright crashed into me... I dunno what my reaction would be...

il_principe

I don't care about stopping in front on cars in central London. Why? Because even if they do overtake me I will simply cruise past them as they become mired in the inevitable traffic ahead. It's the cars that hold most cyclists up over the course of a journey, not the other way round.