Pro rata cost by brand....

bristolpete

Interested in peoples opinions of cost by brand.

For example, I refer to the Specialized S-works SL3 frame. Top reviews across the board, great price @ £1899.99, great looks, lacking internal cable routing however. I now refer to the Cervelo S3. Another top frame, but £3500.00 rrp. Thats a difference of £1700.00 rrp.

Forgetting the geometry, what are peoples opinions on this price differences. Are we looking at a massive R & D budget/ production line difference between brands or simple over pricing?

The thing I find interesting is that people often wheel out cliches when talking about the Treks/Spesh bikes saying they are too popular though personally, I have never seen an S-works frame out on the road. You could say Cervelo are an esoteric brand, but there marketing continues to gather pace. Will Cervelo et al end up in the same place as the Spesh/Treks of this world?

In my industry a friend said its like Canon lense vs. Leica. Take a 50mm F/1.4 lens. Much the same, but different....both do the same thing, but the Leica is optically better and the engineering is likewise - at least the £700.00 odd difference tells us that?

Any opinions?

Pete.

bristolpete

Anyone :-)

Steve_b77

Yeah ones a big brand from the US and the other one isn't so it's 'obviously' cooler and worth the massive price hike

bristolpete

Steve_b77 wrote:

Yeah ones a big brand from the US and the other one isn't so it's 'obviously' cooler and worth the massive price hike

simples :-)

Lig

Hi Pete,

Its a tricky one this... and difficult to explain... I guess its down to personal preference. I would guess you would have to ride the two and then decide if one was worth more than the other. I suppose to someone who is not into cars they could say an MX5 v a Porsche boxster both sporty soft tops but why is one so much more expensive than the other??

I personally have a Cervelo R3SL and paid £1800 when the RRP is £3K I wouldnt have paid £3K and would have bought something else but I dont like Specialized so wouldnt have gone for that.. dont know what I would have gone for, probably kept hold of my old Trek OCLV....however now that I have the R3 I can tell you it is absolutely amazing...but again I cant compare it with a Specialized.

You would need to find a store that sells both built up and test them....

In my mind I kind of look at Trek, Specialised, Scott as 'mainstream' and the likes of Cervelo, Colnago, Pinarrello as more specialist....I know this isn't wholely true, but I kind of think of the specialist bike manufacturers as being ones who sell mainly 'framesets' for 'specialists' to build themselves, and the mainstream for punters to buy off the peg....but this is just my view....

Lig.

bristolpete

Lig wrote:

Hi Pete,

Its a tricky one this... and difficult to explain... I guess its down to personal preference. I would guess you would have to ride the two and then decide if one was worth more than the other. I suppose to someone who is not into cars they could say an MX5 v a Porsche boxster both sporty soft tops but why is one so much more expensive than the other??

I personally have a Cervelo R3SL and paid £1800 when the RRP is £3K I wouldnt have paid £3K and would have bought something else but I dont like Specialized so wouldnt have gone for that.. dont know what I would have gone for, probably kept hold of my old Trek OCLV....however now that I have the R3 I can tell you it is absolutely amazing...but again I cant compare it with a Specialized.

You would need to find a store that sells both built up and test them....

In my mind I kind of look at Trek, Specialised, Scott as 'mainstream' and the likes of Cervelo, Colnago, Pinarrello as more specialist....I know this isn't wholely true, but I kind of think of the specialist bike manufacturers as being ones who sell mainly 'framesets' for 'specialists' to build themselves, and the mainstream for punters to buy off the peg....but this is just my view....

Lig.

Thanks - interesting stuff.

I currently ride and FP3 which is a good bike, not a great bike. What I have been thinking about is deconstructing the cost of a bike off the shelf. Luckily I got my ride second hand like new for a great price, but the FP3 is £2800.00 new with Ultegra. However if you break down the cost of components, does this mean the frame works out at about £1000.00 retail as 'costing' the parts on my bike works out to be around the retail if not slightly less. I suppose it has lead me to think does a £2k / £3k frame perform that much better than a £2.5k all in bike? (rider withstanding).

And as before, is the paradox not that the mainstream are becoming less so, with the other stuff going the other way...?

Saying that, my ride has been well modded, which is a lot of fun.

weapons

[/quote]


And as before, is the paradox not that the mainstream are becoming less so, with the other stuff going the other way...?

[/quote]

I doubt there is a risk of this. The fact that the "mainstream" brands sell bikes from £300-5000 whereas the premium brands sell only £3000+ bikes means that the mainstream brands will always have a more captive audience, especially from the non-specialist cyclists eg commuters. The fact that you also see trek/specialized hybrid bikes around town as well all adds to one's perception of it as mainstream.

Lig

Hi Pete,

I know what your saying but I think its difficult to break down a full bike into parts cost. As Trek for example must get groupsets at a fraction of the cost of what we can buy them?? If you add up the cost of building a bike and then look at the cost of an off the peg one with the same parts it will be far cheaper??

Its a good interesting debate....I think a lot also goes into branding.... like i said for some reason (and I really dont know why) I just dont like certain brands such as Scott and Giant - they just dont do it for me?. Same as Cannondale - I really do love the brand and have two Cannondale MTBs, I think the road frames are superb but given a choice I would sway towards Cervelo, Pinarello (but them only giving 2 years warranty did put me off) or Colnago purely due to the fact that I mainly associate them with MTB kit??!!

I have recently bought an old 2007 Colnago alloy and Carbon frame and that does ride great. IF I hadn't bought the Cervelo and had £2K + again to spend, I would be searching for a good deal on a Colnago frameset!!

Lig.

bristolpete

Lig wrote:

Hi Pete,

I know what your saying but I think its difficult to break down a full bike into parts cost. As Trek for example must get groupsets at a fraction of the cost of what we can buy them?? If you add up the cost of building a bike and then look at the cost of an off the peg one with the same parts it will be far cheaper??

Its a good interesting debate....I think a lot also goes into branding.... like i said for some reason (and I really dont know why) I just dont like certain brands such as Scott and Giant - they just dont do it for me?. Same as Cannondale - I really do love the brand and have two Cannondale MTBs, I think the road frames are superb but given a choice I would sway towards Cervelo, Pinarello (but them only giving 2 years warranty did put me off) or Colnago purely due to the fact that I mainly associate them with MTB kit??!!

I have recently bought an old 2007 Colnago alloy and Carbon frame and that does ride great. IF I hadn't bought the Cervelo and had £2K + again to spend, I would be searching for a good deal on a Colnago frameset!!

Lig.

Yeah, I think you have hit the nail on the head. If 'shops' ( which I support) can charge x amount more for a groupo than an online retailers,i t does suggest that the main dealers are buying bulk and buying cheap. I think I am trying to see past a brand for VFM....

tmg

My view is that Spesh are able to amotise their R&D costs over a larger volume of bikes and for much longer, for example they will sell more SL3 frames and the SL3 technology will trickle it's way down the range as time goes by, so the return they need from each frame is lower. Plus they also have the ability to buy all the other bits in volume so they will make a return on those also, so the overall return they get from a £2K bike will probably be the same as others do on a £3K bike. Spesh's business model is built on volume, they will know that if pitched purely on price people will go for the more exotic, hence why you can always find a good deal on Spesh and why they are specced so well, I have an SL2 Tarmac and was able to knock £1500 of the RRP, if that wasn't the case I would of bought something else.

I'm not so sure that the branding bit adds anything to the price, I think that is more peoples perception which helps the likes of Colnago, Cervelo etc.

bendertherobot

The MX5 / Porsche analogy is quite an interesting one.

If you were to engineer a 2.7l 6 into an MX5 I would imagine that it would be up there with a Porsche 99% of the time.

Instead of bigger engine, think, better rider

inseine

It like any other product, surely? If you've got the volume they're going to be cheaper to make but if you've got the brand name you can charge more. If you've got both you're a to a winner! Think Nike etc.
Using the car analagy, a Nissan GTR will beat almost any other supercar but costs a least half the price but it doesn't really nab many sales from Porsche, because if you want a Porsche....
I think Specilaized still charge a premium for their name, versus Giant for example.