Power Leg Training

Clever Pun
Clever Pun Posts: 6,778
edited March 2010 in Commuting chat
Given the rigours of the daily commute and the damned stats league pushing you that little bit further do you have any time left to do power training?

If so what do you do?

I used to do a fair bit but it fell away and I'm thinking about starting again so any recomendations would be gratfully accepted
Purveyor of sonic doom

Very Hairy Roadie - FCN 4
Fixed Pista- FCN 5
Beared Bromptonite - FCN 14
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Comments

  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    What's power leg training?

    I sometimes do the sitting-against-the-wall thing. Lunges are supposed to be good.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Clever Pun
    Clever Pun Posts: 6,778
    Squats, dead lifts, calf extensions... that kinda thing

    Increasing your muscle mass so on the bike you have more sprinting power etc

    I can imagine doing a work out then being more than pathetic on the way home
    Purveyor of sonic doom

    Very Hairy Roadie - FCN 4
    Fixed Pista- FCN 5
    Beared Bromptonite - FCN 14
  • Rich158
    Rich158 Posts: 2,348
    I used to do squats with weights, and a whole host of stretches. Now I just can't be arsed, nothing beats time on the bike :lol:

    tbh most nights after the commute all I want to do is get as much food in me as I can and sleep
    pain is temporary, the glory of beating your mates to the top of the hill lasts forever.....................

    Revised FCN - 2
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Some chap called Merckx used to say, "Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike".

    I don't go near any weights as I can't stick to any routine.

    But I'm planning on starting squat thrusts this morning to build up CV fitness. Will do them in the morning because, as Rich says, I can't be @rsed in the evening - I'm goosed.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,714
    Do I have to point out again why that's pointless?
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    But it's not pointless. Depends on what you want to achieve.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,714
    Apologies, missed the bit about sprinting.

    Carry on.
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    There's also the power-to-weight issue if you want to climb faster. That's the main reason for me wanting to increase leg power (there's nothing that can be done this side of very powerful pharamceuticals that'll improve my sprinting, and I don't even know if they'd help).
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,714
    cjcp wrote:
    There's also the power-to-weight issue if you want to climb faster. That's the main reason for me wanting to increase leg power (there's nothing that can be done this side of very powerful pharamceuticals that'll improve my sprinting, and I don't even know if they'd help).
    Ah, now that's where it WON'T help you.

    Leg strength training will only increase your maximum power. Useful over a very short burst in a sprint when you can actually use it, but not when you're after sustained power over a longer period. Climbing power to weight's all about the average power you can put out over the length of the climb, and for this your maximum power doesn't matter, just the amount of power you can hold for an extended period.

    If anything, for climbing, doing muscle mass building exercises will hinder more than help as they increase mass without helping the amount of power you can hold. For climbing, focus on your CV system, it's orders of magnitude more important than your maximum power.
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    I'm a little bit confused...
    Seems like most riders want to get Fit, but "Can't be arsed etc." ( Think it's actually I can't be ASKED, but the youth of today huh?)

    Think the overall approach/attitude needs to change to; Keep fit to Ride, Don't ride to keep fit!

    God, I've been injured on and off for 2 years, and there's NOTHING less I want to do but train hard. The "I'm too tired, knackered, lazy" brigade do my head in !!!

    Old coach of mine stated; "8 hrs to work, 8 hrs to sleep, 8 hrs to train, and while your asleep, your fellow cometitiors are probably out training!" Bit harsh, but TRUE.
    Oh, and by the way, he's an Olympic Cycling Coach now, in the UK.
    DON'T give me that rubbish, I can't be bothered...As Mr T say's, "GET SOME NUTS!"
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Splottboy wrote:
    Old coach of mine stated; "8 hrs to work, 8 hrs to sleep, 8 hrs to train, and while your asleep, your fellow cometitiors are probably out training!" Bit harsh, but TRUE.
    Oh, and by the way, he's an Olympic Cycling Coach now, in the UK.
    DON'T give me that rubbish, I can't be bothered...As Mr T say's, "GET SOME NUTS!"

    If he's working with somebody who can restrict their working day to 8 hours, get 8 hours sleep and have 8 hours to train, then that would work a treat.

    But, when you get in at 8pm, having left at 8, need to see your kids in the morning before work and, ideally, at weekends too, not so much.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    Yes, I totally agree. I too had that; Leaving for work at 7am, 50mile train to the City, getting home late, 2 kids a dog and a wife on full-time nights. ARRRRGGH!!! Hard days...
    But, I managed to run a Martial Arts club on 2 nights, ride on w/ends and do weights/circuits some evenings.

    You have to MAKE TIME, Time management is what is required.
    Short, intensive sessions if you're stuck for time.

    It depends on your commitment, attitude, approach. Once you start training , you may feel less tired afterwards. I know, as I've experienced it myself.

    So, look at your timetable/lifestyle, and adapt accordingly.
    A little bit of something is better than a lot of nothing...
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    whyamihere wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    There's also the power-to-weight issue if you want to climb faster. That's the main reason for me wanting to increase leg power (there's nothing that can be done this side of very powerful pharamceuticals that'll improve my sprinting, and I don't even know if they'd help).
    Ah, now that's where it WON'T help you.

    Leg strength training will only increase your maximum power. Useful over a very short burst in a sprint when you can actually use it, but not when you're after sustained power over a longer period. Climbing power to weight's all about the average power you can put out over the length of the climb, and for this your maximum power doesn't matter, just the amount of power you can hold for an extended period.

    If anything, for climbing, doing muscle mass building exercises will hinder more than help as they increase mass without helping the amount of power you can hold. For climbing, focus on your CV system, it's orders of magnitude more important than your maximum power.

    I agree that average power is very important, but surely is depends on the level at which your leg strength is already? If you don't have strong legs, you need to build strength. You can't just lose weight to increase the ratio; you need to work on leg power, too. I agree about the CV fitness because you need that to power the legs.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Splottboy wrote:
    Yes, I totally agree. I too had that; Leaving for work at 7am, 50mile train to the City, getting home late, 2 kids a dog and a wife on full-time nights. ARRRRGGH!!! Hard days...
    But, I managed to run a Martial Arts club on 2 nights, ride on w/ends and do weights/circuits some evenings.

    You have to MAKE TIME, Time management is what is required.
    Short, intensive sessions if you're stuck for time.

    It depends on your commitment, attitude, approach. Once you start training , you may feel less tired afterwards. I know, as I've experienced it myself.

    So, look at your timetable/lifestyle, and adapt accordingly.
    A little bit of something is better than a lot of nothing...

    I ride to and from work as part of that time management, rather than catch the train. But having trained for things like a marathon and an Ironman-length tri, there's not a chance I can do that now. The impact on my time with the family would be too much - I would never see them.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    And what's wrong with that.LOL! ( Two boys, 21 and 18 make me say that...)

    Think that if you're commited, you can do the things you used to, but maybe at a less involved level. Look at what YOU want to Achieve, Goals, Targets, Wishes etc..
    Then, see what the Minimum is needed to achieve it.

    If you're happy doing what you're doing, then great, but, when I thought I was over my broken femur, I made a list of rides/runs to do over the year. This was in 2008/09.
    Unfortunately, due to additional injuries, the "list" is still on the fridge, unticked in some areas.

    But, slowly and surely, I'm getting there, and the list is beckoning to me now!!!
    So, long ride at Beddgelert forest tomorrow is on the cards, which would have seemed impossible just before Christmas. Small steps, easy rides then more in tense, circuits/weights, re-hab and stretching and soon... "I'll be back."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,714
    cjcp wrote:
    whyamihere wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    There's also the power-to-weight issue if you want to climb faster. That's the main reason for me wanting to increase leg power (there's nothing that can be done this side of very powerful pharamceuticals that'll improve my sprinting, and I don't even know if they'd help).
    Ah, now that's where it WON'T help you.

    Leg strength training will only increase your maximum power. Useful over a very short burst in a sprint when you can actually use it, but not when you're after sustained power over a longer period. Climbing power to weight's all about the average power you can put out over the length of the climb, and for this your maximum power doesn't matter, just the amount of power you can hold for an extended period.

    If anything, for climbing, doing muscle mass building exercises will hinder more than help as they increase mass without helping the amount of power you can hold. For climbing, focus on your CV system, it's orders of magnitude more important than your maximum power.

    I agree that average power is very important, but surely is depends on the level at which your leg strength is already? If you don't have strong legs, you need to build strength. You can't just lose weight to increase the ratio; you need to work on leg power, too. I agree about the CV fitness because you need that to power the legs.
    Well, yes, if you could only put out a very small amount of power, then you would need to build up strength first though. I can assure you though, with a great deal of certainty, that you're not short of power, without having met you. If you ride regularly, you'll have enough power to get up any climb your CV system can come with, as fast as your CV system will allow you to.
  • mtb-idle
    mtb-idle Posts: 2,179
    Splottboy wrote:
    Seems like most riders want to get Fit, but "Can't be arsed etc." ( Think it's actually I can't be ASKED, but the youth of today huh?)

    Nope, it's definitely 'can't be arsed'
    FCN = 4
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    Splottboy wrote:
    And what's wrong with that.LOL! ( Two boys, 21 and 18 make me say that...)

    Think that if you're commited, you can do the things you used to, but maybe at a less involved level. Look at what YOU want to Achieve, Goals, Targets, Wishes etc..
    Then, see what the Minimum is needed to achieve it.

    If you're happy doing what you're doing, then great, but, when I thought I was over my broken femur, I made a list of rides/runs to do over the year. This was in 2008/09.
    Unfortunately, due to additional injuries, the "list" is still on the fridge, unticked in some areas.

    But, slowly and surely, I'm getting there, and the list is beckoning to me now!!!
    So, long ride at Beddgelert forest tomorrow is on the cards, which would have seemed impossible just before Christmas. Small steps, easy rides then more in tense, circuits/weights, re-hab and stretching and soon... "I'll be back."

    Ah, see, now mine are just over 4.5 and 2.5. Good luck with the recovery process :) . That's a bugger of an injury to get over.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    Arsed makes no sense at all.

    Can't be asked, surely means, Don't bother to ASK me as I won't do it etc.

    How bout, Can't be butted, Can't be bummed, Can't be a-holed, Can't be rimmed???

    Oh yeah, I forgot, it's YOOF thing!
  • suzyb
    suzyb Posts: 3,449
    It comes from can't be bothered to get off your arse to do something
    Whippet
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    whyamihere wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    whyamihere wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    There's also the power-to-weight issue if you want to climb faster. That's the main reason for me wanting to increase leg power (there's nothing that can be done this side of very powerful pharamceuticals that'll improve my sprinting, and I don't even know if they'd help).
    Ah, now that's where it WON'T help you.

    Leg strength training will only increase your maximum power. Useful over a very short burst in a sprint when you can actually use it, but not when you're after sustained power over a longer period. Climbing power to weight's all about the average power you can put out over the length of the climb, and for this your maximum power doesn't matter, just the amount of power you can hold for an extended period.

    If anything, for climbing, doing muscle mass building exercises will hinder more than help as they increase mass without helping the amount of power you can hold. For climbing, focus on your CV system, it's orders of magnitude more important than your maximum power.

    I agree that average power is very important, but surely is depends on the level at which your leg strength is already? If you don't have strong legs, you need to build strength. You can't just lose weight to increase the ratio; you need to work on leg power, too. I agree about the CV fitness because you need that to power the legs.
    Well, yes, if you could only put out a very small amount of power, then you would need to build up strength first though. I can assure you though, with a great deal of certainty, that you're not short of power, without having met you. If you ride regularly, you'll have enough power to get up any climb your CV system can come with, as fast as your CV system will allow you to.

    I have read somewhere that our muscles can take a lot more than our CV fitness will allow, but what about articles such as this: http://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

    I've got a book by Carmichael which suggests strength work in the autum annd winter, but not concurrently with the racing season. I agree that the strength needs to be converted to bike speed, but that suggests weight training is beneficial.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • Oddjob62
    Oddjob62 Posts: 1,056
    Clever Pun wrote:
    Given the rigours of the daily commute and the damned stats league pushing you that little bit further do you have any time left to do power training?

    This the main reasos why i have stopped hunting the top spots.

    Now i'm back in the gym 3 times a week, and added flat sprints and hill sprints into my weekly cycling schedule.
    As yet unnamed (Dolan Seta)
    Joelle (Focus Expert SRAM)
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,714
    cjcp wrote:
    I have read somewhere that our muscles can take a lot more than our CV fitness will allow, but what about articles such as this: http://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

    I've got a book by Carmichael which suggests strength work in the autum annd winter, but not concurrently with the racing season. I agree that the strength needs to be converted to bike speed, but that suggests weight training is beneficial.
    Most of the gym work I've seen suggested (including Carmichael IIRC) focus on the core and arms, the bits that aren't really exercised much by riding a bike, but can still be very useful. If you never do any arm exercises, for example, you may find it difficult to support your weight properly if out of the saddle for an extended period. The advantage of core strength is well discussed everywhere. You don't want to go crazy and bulk up massively, but a toned upper body is probably more useful than being just skin and bones (not to mention looking better).
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    whyamihere wrote:
    cjcp wrote:
    I have read somewhere that our muscles can take a lot more than our CV fitness will allow, but what about articles such as this: http://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

    I've got a book by Carmichael which suggests strength work in the autum annd winter, but not concurrently with the racing season. I agree that the strength needs to be converted to bike speed, but that suggests weight training is beneficial.
    Most of the gym work I've seen suggested (including Carmichael IIRC) focus on the core and arms, the bits that aren't really exercised much by riding a bike, but can still be very useful. If you never do any arm exercises, for example, you may find it difficult to support your weight properly if out of the saddle for an extended period. The advantage of core strength is well discussed everywhere. You don't want to go crazy and bulk up massively, but a toned upper body is probably more useful than being just skin and bones (not to mention looking better).

    My legs can't support my weight properly out of the saddle, nevermind my arms! :lol:

    He has a section on leg presses, curls and extensions, too. I suppose it's moot from my point of view, though, because there's no chance of me going to the gym, but squat thrusts and core work is more likely. I'd also rather not get involved in a scientific argument with a science/PhD bod :P .
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • PBo
    PBo Posts: 2,493
    Splottboy wrote:
    Arsed makes no sense at all.

    Can't be asked, surely means, Don't bother to ASK me as I won't do it etc.

    How bout, Can't be butted, Can't be bummed, Can't be a-holed, Can't be rimmed???

    Oh yeah, I forgot, it's YOOF thing!

    well I've been using "can't be arsed" for nigh on 30 years, so as a 41 year old, I can't decide whether I'm flattered or insulted to be regarded as yoof!
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    You're as young as the woman you feel, Lol.
    53 in 2 months, physically.
    According to the Mrs, 15, mentally.
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    PBo wrote:
    Splottboy wrote:
    Arsed makes no sense at all.

    Can't be asked, surely means, Don't bother to ASK me as I won't do it etc.

    How bout, Can't be butted, Can't be bummed, Can't be a-holed, Can't be rimmed???

    Oh yeah, I forgot, it's YOOF thing!

    well I've been using "can't be arsed" for nigh on 30 years, so as a 41 year old, I can't decide whether I'm flattered or insulted to be regarded as yoof!

    :lol::lol:

    Yeah, it's definitely 'arsed'. Consult the OED if you don't believe me.

    Oh, and just because people are young doesn't mean they're thick. I'm 27, by the way, I don't think that counts as 'youth' any more, but I'm pretty sure I'm stupider now than I was at 21.
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.
  • Clever Pun
    Clever Pun Posts: 6,778
    yeah I'd like to increase my speed on the flat I think

    I'm built more like a flanker than a 'cyclist' so it's not going to make much difference on the hills anyway :lol:
    Purveyor of sonic doom

    Very Hairy Roadie - FCN 4
    Fixed Pista- FCN 5
    Beared Bromptonite - FCN 14
  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    #nowplayinginmyhead Midlife crisis - FNM
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • Oddjob62
    Oddjob62 Posts: 1,056
    Clever Pun wrote:
    yeah I'd like to increase my speed on the flat I think

    I'm hoping to get down to HH for a few sessions this year (Carly keeps nagging me that she wants to go:P) so have started working on getting my sprint speed up to full (or at least as full as i have) strength.

    Spent most of my school/uni life playing prop (rugby) and d-tackle (amfoot), so the legs have plenty of power when they are fit (although they have always been cr4p when it comes to endurance).

    My gym sessions are very basic, consisting of a couple of olympic lifts, some explosive leg lifts (mostly unilateral), and a couple of push and pull exercises.
    As yet unnamed (Dolan Seta)
    Joelle (Focus Expert SRAM)

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