DNA database
Comments
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zedders wrote:What do these people have to hide?
Zedders, I think we're getting crossed wires here. I think generally people are arguing against an "all in" database, rather than an arrest-record database, and I think you're defending the latter
If you're defending the former, game on!
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zedders wrote:I have major concerns as with most about the competence of the government, and with some of their decisions, but that shouldn’t be reason for not having a DNA database?
Err yes, yes it should. In fact, that the government can't be trusted not to completely balls up the running of such a database is one of the best reasons I can think of not to have one (just behind the reason that the government will probably put the running of it out to tender, so it can be ballsed up more expensively by the private sector). I'll leave it to Fast as Fupp to explain, yet again, that a future not-so-nice government could legislate such that anything could be a 'crime'.
Edit: I see he already has!0 -
nasahapley wrote:zedders wrote:I have major concerns as with most about the competence of the government, and with some of their decisions, but that shouldn’t be reason for not having a DNA database?
Err yes, yes it should. In fact, that the government can't be trusted not to completely balls up the running of such a database is one of the best reasons I can think of not to have one (just behind the reason that the government will probably put the running of it out to tender, so it can be ballsed up more expensively by the private sector). I'll leave it to Fast as Fupp to explain, yet again, that a future not-so-nice government could legislate such that anything could be a 'crime'.
Edit: I see he already has!
on the ball, me!
'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'0 -
nasahapley wrote:zedders wrote:I have major concerns as with most about the competence of the government, and with some of their decisions, but that shouldn’t be reason for not having a DNA database?
Err yes, yes it should. In fact, that the government can't be trusted not to completely balls up the running of such a database is one of the best reasons I can think of not to have one (just behind the reason that the government will probably put the running of it out to tender, so it can be ballsed up more expensively by the private sector). I'll leave it to Fast as Fupp to explain, yet again, that a future not-so-nice government could legislate such that anything could be a 'crime'.
Edit: I see he already has!
What a crock! Do you understand anything you are talking about?
The DNA database is under the control of ACPO or it was the last time I looked. It has well over 1 million profiles on it. If a government was not so nice as you and others have inferred do you really think they would even bother with a DNA database? Why don't you go and live in Zimbabwe, or Chile in days of Pinochet, Argentina or Stalin's Russia when people were arrested and "disappeared". The DNA database has been a remarkable resource in solving crime and no doubt it will continue to do so.
Yes defendants have been convicted solely on DNA evidence but unfortunately I cannot remember the case names. DNA profiling is just another form of evidence like finger printing, footwear marks, fibre analysis or damage marks. DNA evidence does not convict people that is the job of a jury. To misunderstand this is to fundamentally misunderstand our criminal justice system. I feel happier than not that we have DNA analysis and a NDNADB with all convicted crims on there and DNA samples from crime scenes. DNA evidence can eliminate as well as include potential suspects.
For all the numptees sounding off against the NDNADB you would no doubt be the first to complain if your other half was murdered, raped or badly beaten and it transpired body fluids suspected to be from the offender(s) were not sent for DNA analysis and as result of this omission not loaded to the NDNADB to see if there was a hit against a profile with a name already on there.
The NDNADB is the envy of many countries and the technology behind it has been used in many countries to solve serious crimes.
It was DNA evidence that finally brought the killer Ronald Castree of Lesley Anne Moleseed to justice. However prior to DNA evidence the wrong man Stefan Kisko had been convicted of and spent 16 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. SF's mum who campaigned tirelessly to have him released died 6 months after his release and Stefan himself died within a year. Terribly sad.
http://www.innocent.org.uk/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/1 ... wainwright
DNA evidence also caught Anthony Ferrera for the brutal sadistic assault and attempted murder of Merlin Nuttal in South London in the mid 1990s. She was waiting at a bus stop in the morning to go to work when he randomly approached her engaging her in conversation then dragged her off the street by her hair into a derelict property where his brutal and sadistic assault began. He finally set fire to her as she lay unconscious on a mattress. She regained consciouness and crawled down 4 flights of stairs in a now burning derelict building out onto the street. People just walked around her!!! But her killer was caught thanks to DNA evidence.
The NDNADB is an invaluable tool in fighting crime.
All these comments about eugenics and selling people's information are absolutely absurd and just show that people don't know what they are talking about. THE NDNADB is very strictly managed and controlled for this reason.Life is like a roll of toilet paper; long and useful, but always ends at the wrong moment. Anon.
Think how stupid the average person is.......
half of them are even more stupid than you first thought.0 -
Dilemna - nobody is opposing the use of DNA in criminal trials, or even the inclusion of convicted offenders on the DNA database (so far as I read it).
This is an issue of consent. People don't trust the government to be competent or benevolent enough to look after this information. In an age in which civil liberties are being eroded to the point that people are now arresting people under anti-terrorist legislation for peaceful protest, why should we have any confidence that the government will manage this information about us properly?
You say that the info is managed correctly. What guarantee have you got that this will be the case in 10, 20 years time?
Please try to answer these questions instead of just calling people numpties because they don't trust the government.0 -
Dilemna... Oh it's strictly managed is it? Well hush my mouth, I won't have to worry about copies of the database being left on a train will I?
Or if it's strictly managed it's powers definitley wont be abused by scumbag local government officials abusing it in the manner htat they used anti-terror legislation to spy on parents wanting to send their children to school.
My main objection remains, however, philosophical. I am innocent until proven guilty. SHould the police have reasonable suspicion that I have been involved in a crime then they can take my DNA to check against any samples they may have obtained in connection with that crime. Until then, it's a scattershot approach which presumes everybody has something to hide and that the state has a right to whatever information about you it chooses.
the National ID Database, ID cards and the seemingly limitless powers agents of the state keep gaining over free citizens are just some of the reasons I am actively seeking to leave this country."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
The best way of avoiding abuse of a database is not to have one in the first place.0
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A lot of people are talking about voluntarily giving a DNA sample, however this isn't something that is even being considered by the home office. The main issues lie in whether the government should have the right to keep DNA profiles of suspects that are not convicted of a crime.
Rather interestingly, out of 200,000 profiles of non-convicted people that would have been removed from the database, 8,500 of these profiles have been linked with 14000 crimes (including 114 murders, 116 rapes, 55 attempted murders).
It's interesting to see how people don't trust the government to look after the data held on the database yet the genetic data is absolutely useless for anything other than fairly tentative identification.
Cressers, the day we lose the DNA database will be a terrible day for criminal justice!!0 -
Will it? I think the justice system will go on much as before.0
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Mask of Sanity, what's the law WRT keeping fingerprints/mugshots after a release without charge/caution/further action?0
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zanes wrote:Mask of Sanity, what's the law WRT keeping fingerprints/mugshots after a release without charge/caution/further action?
this is the grey area at the moment particularly with DNA. Fingerprint records do tend to get weeded though.
The Home Office are have recently finished the consultation following the ECHR rulings on S & Marper (right to have samples destroyed for arrests that did not result in conviction) which is going to tghten it up and impose retention and destruction rules and tarriffs.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ ... -database/0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:zanes wrote:Mask of Sanity, what's the law WRT keeping fingerprints/mugshots after a release without charge/caution/further action?
this is the grey area at the moment particularly with DNA. Fingerprint records do tend to get weeded though.
The Home Office are have recently finished the consultation following the ECHR rulings on S & Marper (right to have samples destroyed for unconvicted samples) which is going to tghten it up and impose retention and destruction rules and tarriffs.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ ... -database/
I know about the DNA bit, and that the UK is technically in breach of an ECHR judgement, but I was looking for comparisons with mugshot/fingerprints, thanks for the info about fingerprints.0 -
zanes wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:zanes wrote:Mask of Sanity, what's the law WRT keeping fingerprints/mugshots after a release without charge/caution/further action?
this is the grey area at the moment particularly with DNA. Fingerprint records do tend to get weeded though.
The Home Office are have recently finished the consultation following the ECHR rulings on S & Marper (right to have samples destroyed for unconvicted samples) which is going to tghten it up and impose retention and destruction rules and tarriffs.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ ... -database/
I know about the DNA bit, and that the UK is technically in breach of an ECHR judgement, but I was looking for comparisons with mugshot/fingerprints, thanks for the info about fingerprints.
edited my prior post to make it read better after you quoted.
If you have a particular interest, and fit the taken but unconvicted category, it might be an idea to write to the relevant Police Criminal Records office and ask for clarification of their rules a & for them to be destroyed. IIRC (long time since I worked the forms section) you can ask to see that happen - you certainy can with any Elimination prints you may have been asked to volunteer if you've ever been a victim of crime.
PM me if you want a quiet conflab0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:zanes wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:zanes wrote:Mask of Sanity, what's the law WRT keeping fingerprints/mugshots after a release without charge/caution/further action?
this is the grey area at the moment particularly with DNA. Fingerprint records do tend to get weeded though.
The Home Office are have recently finished the consultation following the ECHR rulings on S & Marper (right to have samples destroyed for unconvicted samples) which is going to tghten it up and impose retention and destruction rules and tarriffs.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/ ... -database/
I know about the DNA bit, and that the UK is technically in breach of an ECHR judgement, but I was looking for comparisons with mugshot/fingerprints, thanks for the info about fingerprints.
edited my prior post to make it read better after you quoted.
If you have a particular interest, and fit the taken but unconvicted category, it might be an idea to write to the relevant Police Criminal Records office and ask for clarification of their rules a & for them to be destroyed. IIRC (long time since I worked the forms section) you can ask to see that happen - you certainy can with any Elimination prints you may have been asked to volunteer if you've ever been a victim of crime.
PM me if you want a quiet conflab
Happily I don't have anything on file, just trying to get some background on this so I can rationalise my thoughts on it, as I am not quite sure where I lie on this part of it.0 -
dilemna wrote:nasahapley wrote:zedders wrote:I have major concerns as with most about the competence of the government, and with some of their decisions, but that shouldn’t be reason for not having a DNA database?
Err yes, yes it should. In fact, that the government can't be trusted not to completely balls up the running of such a database is one of the best reasons I can think of not to have one (just behind the reason that the government will probably put the running of it out to tender, so it can be ballsed up more expensively by the private sector). I'll leave it to Fast as Fupp to explain, yet again, that a future not-so-nice government could legislate such that anything could be a 'crime'.
Edit: I see he already has!
What a crock! Do you understand anything you are talking about?
etc etc.
Quite a rant there, but I couldn't see much in it that had anything to do with the point I made. And I know that 'if you like it so much, why don't you go and live there' is considered a clever debating ploy by some, but hats off to you for suggesting that I not only go and live somewhere else, but go back in time to do so. Your logic seems to be 'Stalin was bad. Stalin didn't have a DNA database. Therefore a DNA database is good.' The closest point anyone here is making to what you're going on about is what if any of these bad sods had come to power and inherited a DNA database from their more benign predecessors? Re my views on the use of DNA evidence in trials, Johnfinch has managed to understand me - you've got the wrong end of the stick (or just the wrong stick).
But if you say it'll be strictly controlled and managed, that's ok then. Tell me though, what exactly were the protocols regarding the protection of the info on the child benefit database? Didn't involve losing the whole bl**dy thing in the post, did they?0 -
its not the issue of having the dna on file, its having the knowledge of who can view it that is the issue.
think of it as big brother and you panic, but look at the flip side.
if we were all microchipped and only the correct people could access the database, the world would be a safer place.
if you are in a pile up and everyone is either dead or injured, the ambulance staff can scan you, find out your blood group and allergies etc without having to wait to ask you, lifesaving in my thought.
the police could tell who is who and inform the next of kin etc...
its just a matter of allowing the kmowledge to be known by the correct people.
although, the system could and would be exploited if it ever came to fruition.0 -
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fast as fupp wrote:
if you think goverments police and 'security' services wouldnt use our data for whatever they wanted youre a naive fool
i take it youve been down to the bizzie station to surrender your dna?
care to explain what for and how they'd brainwash the staff concerned into going along with it without a whistle blown or protest posted anywhere
actually yes, my DNA and Fingerprints are on the database and voluntarily - its not (yet) compulsory for existing staff to do so.
I'm one of the people you're talking about but I'm really hard to spot in normal society with the special shoes that hide my cloven hooves and pocket in the back of my trousers to keep the forked tail away from prying eyes. the rams horns are easily hidden under my helmet until I get into work and I can revert to my normal diabolical shape.
I'm no more naive fool than you're paranoid conspiracy nut, shall we drop the stupid insults eh?
The Government are more open to being found out and exposed for doing what they've always done nowadays, its not that there's more going on it's just that there's so many outlets and public/media accountabilities in place.
I'm Joe Bloke with wife, children, dogs, bikes, mortgage, overdraft and a splitting headache after 13 hours at work today - do you think if I and my fellow human beings that happen to work with the cops were asked to go down the criminal road of abusing your liberties that we don't make the connection that you and yours today me and mine tomorrow.
or that we'd genuinely trust such underhand people that asked us to do so to protect us WHEN NOT IF the sh*t hit the fan to keep us in a job and out of Prison. Quite frankly you and the rest are not even a blip on my radar when the though of the consequences of criminality in my job kick in. I can be sacked if I make a genuine and honest mistake. think about it for a minute - I'm Mr absolutely bog standard just doing a job of work and no different to the rest - what in gods name makes you think that you're important enough to me to risk my and my families future on. Would you do it to another person? why would I? what makes you so perfect and morally incorruptable that I'm not?
in global terms comparing 'lost' civil liberties in this country is like complaining the Pacific is 3 feet shallower.
if you were to actually go and look at the legislation, (Terrorism aside - and I'd not dream of trying to explain or defend that it's a whole different world - but look at the fact that most of those high profile arrests have resulted in the people being released - not a good reflection on the copsl in the first place but hardly comparable to your sort of Orwellian distopic society of abused and lost civil liberties) you'd see loopholes and 'open to interpretations' being closed & checks and balances giving far more power and accountability to the defence side over the instruments of prosecution, Europe has the whip hand, ECHR trumps British law. Are you proposing a european superconspiracy?
and next time how about an example or two0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:[<SNIP>
The Government are more open to being found out and exposed for doing what they've always done nowadays, its not that there's more going on it's just that there's so many outlets and accountabilities in place that covert wiretaps and Gene Hunt coppering are more difficult to get away with (no doubt some still try it on though - even I'm not that naive!)
<SNIP>
Whoa SBIB, take it easy. No one (well, not me) is getting at you (rozzer I assume?) or your use of the info. It's government (not necessarily this one) and the slippery slope that has us worried!0 -
How do you sceptical people feel the government would use the data?0
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zanes wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:[<SNIP>
The Government are more open to being found out and exposed for doing what they've always done nowadays, its not that there's more going on it's just that there's so many outlets and accountabilities in place that covert wiretaps and Gene Hunt coppering are more difficult to get away with (no doubt some still try it on though - even I'm not that naive!)
<SNIP>
Whoa SBIB, take it easy. No one (well, not me) is getting at you (rozzer I assume?) or your use of the info. It's government (not necessarily this one) and the slippery slope that has us worried!
Civvy in rozzy clothing.
The government aren't specialists in DNA or Fingerprints or whatever else and don't have the practical hands on knowledge of what or how to do with them, its specialists like me that would have to do the dirty work, so I make no apologies for getting rather defensive when the 'the government can do what they want' argument comes up because it is basically saying I'm a corrupt or malign puppet of political will out to get the rest of you. and there's never any explanation or examples to back up why I'd risk everything in my life just to get you lot on behalf of Gordon or David.
I'm no covert spook with a licence do whatever it takes, I'm subject to the same laws and work regs as the rest of you, the only licence I have is for driving and I've got points on that 0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:zanes wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:[<SNIP>
The Government are more open to being found out and exposed for doing what they've always done nowadays, its not that there's more going on it's just that there's so many outlets and accountabilities in place that covert wiretaps and Gene Hunt coppering are more difficult to get away with (no doubt some still try it on though - even I'm not that naive!)
<SNIP>
Whoa SBIB, take it easy. No one (well, not me) is getting at you (rozzer I assume?) or your use of the info. It's government (not necessarily this one) and the slippery slope that has us worried!
Civvy in rozzy clothing.
The government aren't specialists in DNA or Fingerprints or whatever else and don't have the practical hands on knowledge of what or how to do with them, its specialists like me that would have to do the dirty work, so I make no apologies for getting rather defensive when the 'the government can do what they want' argument comes up because it is basically saying I'm a corrupt or malign puppet of political will out to get the rest of you. and there's never any explanation or examples to back up why I'd risk everything in my life just to get you lot on behalf of Gordon or David.
I'm no covert spook with a licence do whatever it takes, I'm subject to the same laws and work regs as the rest of you, the only licence I have is for driving and I've got points on that
The government aren't specialists in torture either, but there seems to be no problem "not doing it, honest" 0 -
you've lost me on that one?
but to second guess, how much skill does it take to keep someone awake for a week before asking them some leading questions and hitting them until they give the right answer
Lets not even consider the difficulty of going to work on them with a boiling kettle and a bare electric flex?
any drug dealer owed a chunk of money can (and do) do that , it doesn't take a secret agent. more Patricia Cormwell or Jeffery Deaver
I think we've gone ever so slightly off topic though. :oops:0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:fast as fupp wrote:
if you think goverments police and 'security' services wouldnt use our data for whatever they wanted youre a naive fool
i take it youve been down to the bizzie station to surrender your dna?
care to explain what for and how they'd brainwash the staff concerned into going along with it without a whistle blown or protest posted anywhere
actually yes, my DNA and Fingerprints are on the database and voluntarily - its not (yet) compulsory for existing staff to do so.
I'm one of the people you're talking about but I'm really hard to spot in normal society with the special shoes that hide my cloven hooves and pocket in the back of my trousers to keep the forked tail away from prying eyes. the rams horns are easily hidden under my helmet until I get into work and I can revert to my normal diabolical shape.
I'm no more naive fool than you're paranoid conspiracy nut, shall we drop the stupid insults eh?
The Government are more open to being found out and exposed for doing what they've always done nowadays, its not that there's more going on it's just that there's so many outlets and public/media accountabilities in place.
I'm Joe Bloke with wife, children, dogs, bikes, mortgage, overdraft and a splitting headache after 13 hours at work today - do you think if I and my fellow human beings that happen to work with the cops were asked to go down the criminal road of abusing your liberties that we don't make the connection that you and yours today me and mine tomorrow.
or that we'd genuinely trust such underhand people that asked us to do so to protect us WHEN NOT IF the sh*t hit the fan to keep us in a job and out of Prison. Quite frankly you and the rest are not even a blip on my radar when the though of the consequences of criminality in my job kick in. I can be sacked if I make a genuine and honest mistake. think about it for a minute - I'm Mr absolutely bog standard just doing a job of work and no different to the rest - what in gods name makes you think that you're important enough to me to risk my and my families future on. Would you do it to another person? why would I? what makes you so perfect and morally incorruptable that I'm not?
in global terms comparing 'lost' civil liberties in this country is like complaining the Pacific is 3 feet shallower.
if you were to actually go and look at the legislation, (Terrorism aside - and I'd not dream of trying to explain or defend that it's a whole different world - but look at the fact that most of those high profile arrests have resulted in the people being released - not a good reflection on the copsl in the first place but hardly comparable to your sort of Orwellian distopic society of abused and lost civil liberties) you'd see loopholes and 'open to interpretations' being closed & checks and balances giving far more power and accountability to the defence side over the instruments of prosecution, Europe has the whip hand, ECHR trumps British law. Are you proposing a european superconspiracy?
and next time how about an example or two
Nobody is suggesting that this country is an Orwellian nightmare, just that we shouldn't be putting such tools into the hands of the government, because we don't know what the world is going to be like in 20 years time.
The DNA database is just a tiny part of a wider picture, in which the government is trying to using intimidation tactics to surpress forms of dissent - a man in his 80s being arrested under anti-terrorism legislation for heckling Jack Straw, a woman getting the same treatment for reading a list of dead soldiers in protest at Iraq, North Yorkshire council threatening to report a journalist to the police for asking awkward questions, again under anti-terrorism. These are the types of people who should not be going on the DNA database.
Leaving behind any philosophical debates, let's think about this from an economic point of view. The UK police has some of the most sophisticated surveillance and detection systems in the world, yet we still live in a society, which, while not exactly dangerous, suffers fairly high crime rates compared to most other European countries (http://www.europeansafetyobservatory.eu ... e%20EU.pdf). Instead of spending the money on supplying the police with ever better surveillance and detection methods, why not admit that the cure rather than prevention method isn't working, investigate how other, safer, European countries keep their crime levels low, and invest the money in similar ways? Just a thought.0 -
JF - you've not noticed the nazi comments on this thread and claims that our civil liberties have been shredded. I may have gone OTT but only in response to similar idiocy.
the government don't arrest people, the police do. Jack Straw isn't on the phone saying pick this bloke or that bloke up. unfortunatelly sometimes the common sense message and the spirit of laws is lost and misinterpreted a little too jobsworthy, by officers that are battered into submission by an absolute deluge of conflicting priorities and knee jerk reactions.
Look at Manchester and the storm over people arrested throwing snowballs as having offensive weapons - its nothing to do with the intimidation tactics of the government (no hyperbole there of course) just overworked people doing a job of work a little too zealously.
there's been similar upset over people being stopped from taking tourist photos under the terrorism banner (check my previous post, I do caveat the fact that that little area does seem to have a bit more current leeway that the mainstream laws and that it doesn't always cover the police in glory, but again I'll say it most of the people get back onto the streets without charge - hardly intimidating to arrest in a blaze of glory and have to let go with a similar blaze of negative - cops co/ck up - publicity)
check the law - the forensic databases are being further cleaned up and the loopholes / interpretations removed so 'crimes' such as these that even if they do get past the CPS (check the number of cases that don't) then any sane Judge or at least appeal panel will throw them out and the sample will not be allowed to remain on the database unless voluntarily consented to by the donor.
As to other country crime rates, I don't know, maybe they're just left to get on with it without being beaten over the head with a new initiative every week in the name of party political debate. Maybe they have a different view of what constitutes crime - Dutch greater drug tolerance etc. That is a biggy - the illegality and hence risk premium of drugs is a huge driver for other personal and acquisitive crimes. Prison doesn't seem to work as a deterrent or rehabilitation and a criminal record is pretty much a guarantee of no job and a life on benefits or fending for yourself (i.e. further crime). What are the same countries education rates like - how many functionally illiterate and innumerate primary and secondary kids are turned out and circulate their way round and round of the prison system without ever getting the help they need to grow and develop as people. Pointing at crime rates in isolation is too simplistic. Crime is a societal problem and needs a societal solution or the Police are never going to be able to do much more than circulate the same flawed people round the same flawed system.
Maybe as per New York a decade(+) ago with Mayor Giuliani enacting a zero tolerance crime policy, they support the Police with massive massive public spending in other areas to socially engineer a better standard of civic life and public satisfaction alongside the policing clampdown. Money that here for whatever reason wasn't spent back in the days of prosperity and where is it going to come from now?
lots of people are more than happy to ascribe sinister motivation to what is usually nothing more than political willy waving, bureaucratic excess, a lack of joined up thinking within the same police force let alone across county borders and poor top down communication and bottom up feedback leading to a fear of the possible consequences of using a bit of common sense.0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:JF - you've not noticed the nazi comments on this thread and claims that our civil liberties have been shredded. I may have gone OTT but only in response to similar idiocy.
the government don't arrest people, the police do. Jack Straw isn't on the phone saying pick this bloke or that bloke up. unfortunatelly sometimes the common sense message and the spirit of laws is lost and misinterpreted a little too jobsworthy, by officers that are battered into submission by an absolute deluge of conflicting priorities and knee jerk reactions.
Look at Manchester and the storm over people arrested throwing snowballs as having offensive weapons - its nothing to do with the intimidation tactics of the government (no hyperbole there of course)
Why hyperbole? Is it beyond the powers of the home secretary to order the police not to use anti-terrorism laws against law-abiding people?
I have read the other comments on this thread, and I can't see anyone claiming that we are living in a Nazi society. I think you just don't understand that people are saying what if it happens here in the future?
You're right that other societies are more successful in other policy areas, and that's exactly the point I was making - to cut crime you need to have better education systems, etc. I'm in Slovenia at the moment. I've seen two policemen in the 2 months I've been here, yet people are still OK about leaving decent bikes unlocked in public and there is absolutely no feeling of intimidation or violence in the streets at night. This country isn't too badly off economically, but compared to the UK it doesn't have gigantic amounts of cash to splash around. So if they can do it, why can't we?0 -
unfortunatelly sometimes the common sense message and the spirit of laws is lost and misinterpreted a little too jobsworthy, by officers that are battered into submission by an absolute deluge of conflicting priorities and knee jerk reactions.
..... just overworked people doing a job of work a little too zealously.
......... but again I'll say it most of the people get back onto the streets without charge - hardly intimidating to arrest in a blaze of glory and have to let go with a similar blaze of negative - cops co/ck up - publicity)
unfortunately those overzealousmisguided people often do charge people and i can tell you the months that it takes the overworked cps to get round to thouroughly checking the facts before dismissing things as ridiculous (or as trespass against the person unlawful arrest and malicious prosecution by these poor over enthusiastic poicemen) IS EXTREMELY INTIMIDATING
and that the police authority then refuse to remove the DNA from the record is an aditional insult. sure youve broken the law keep the records but if charges have been dismissed as false? It smacks of "you may have got away with it this time sunny but were watching you"0 -
johnfinch wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:JF - you've not noticed the nazi comments on this thread and claims that our civil liberties have been shredded. I may have gone OTT but only in response to similar idiocy.
the government don't arrest people, the police do. Jack Straw isn't on the phone saying pick this bloke or that bloke up. unfortunatelly sometimes the common sense message and the spirit of laws is lost and misinterpreted a little too jobsworthy, by officers that are battered into submission by an absolute deluge of conflicting priorities and knee jerk reactions.
Look at Manchester and the storm over people arrested throwing snowballs as having offensive weapons - its nothing to do with the intimidation tactics of the government (no hyperbole there of course)
I have read the other comments on this thread, and I can't see anyone claiming that we are living in a Nazi society. I think you just don't understand that people are saying what if it happens here in the future?
?
I didn't say that but have another read of p1 and P2, particularly several mentions and parallels to the jews in nazi germany and claims (hopefully FAF was joking) of eugenics amd genocide via the DNA database. how they effect those from a removes sample is anyones guess unless they're into cloning - persecution is surely easier if you sit outside a synagogue or mosque to gather data & visibly intimidate people; or use the census; if that your bag.
I do understand the parallels and have put another long diatribe earlier in the thread detailing the mentality and life in pre and post WW1 germany and the appalling genuine lack of human rights all round in the Weimar era.
Seriously do go and read it again and tell me honestly if you think in the next 20 years we're going to descend into a state of national chaos and international subjugation and asset stripping that will lead to otherwise normal rational people from all walks of life activiely participating in the sort of attocious national shame of the mid C20 germans.
Jusat because I don't see Nick Griffin as Adolf Hitler Mk2 or the BNP obtaining a powerbase along the lines of the National Socialists or the rest of the world, having seen that repeatedly happen allow a major modern european trading democracy to go down that route please don't patronise me.
Look at the international consternation over Putin's renewed grip on power, Russia generally versus South Georgia particularly - what would have happened if Russia didn't have vast oil reserves and the prime means of moving it to Europe- see the gunboat diplomacy they used on Germany to shut them up.
The global eco concerns over China's that their emerging economic power makes them able to stick two fingers up at the rest of the world .
and then think what teeth has Britain got in the 20 year descent into govenrmental anarchy to hav ethat facility to tell the rest to do one. we're a service industry island and that can be done anywhere with phone and internet.0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:johnfinch wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:JF - you've not noticed the nazi comments on this thread and claims that our civil liberties have been shredded. I may have gone OTT but only in response to similar idiocy.
the government don't arrest people, the police do. Jack Straw isn't on the phone saying pick this bloke or that bloke up. unfortunatelly sometimes the common sense message and the spirit of laws is lost and misinterpreted a little too jobsworthy, by officers that are battered into submission by an absolute deluge of conflicting priorities and knee jerk reactions.
Look at Manchester and the storm over people arrested throwing snowballs as having offensive weapons - its nothing to do with the intimidation tactics of the government (no hyperbole there of course)
I have read the other comments on this thread, and I can't see anyone claiming that we are living in a Nazi society. I think you just don't understand that people are saying what if it happens here in the future?
?
I didn't say that but have another read of p1 and P2, particularly several mentions and parallels to the jews in nazi germany and claims (hopefully FAF was joking) of eugenics amd genocide via the DNA database. how they effect those from a removes sample is anyones guess unless they're into cloning - persecution is surely easier if you sit outside a synagogue or mosque to gather data & visibly intimidate people; or use the census; if that your bag.
I do understand the parallels and have put another long diatribe earlier in the thread detailing the mentality and life in pre and post WW1 germany and the appalling genuine lack of human rights all round in the Weimar era.
Seriously do go and read it again and tell me honestly if you think in the next 20 years we're going to descend into a state of national chaos and international subjugation and asset stripping that will lead to otherwise normal rational people from all walks of life activiely participating in the sort of attocious national shame of the mid C20 germans.
Jusat because I don't see Nick Griffin as Adolf Hitler Mk2 or the BNP obtaining a powerbase along the lines of the National Socialists or the rest of the world, having seen that repeatedly happen allow a major modern european trading democracy to go down that route please don't patronise me.
Look at the international consternation over Putin's renewed grip on power, Russia generally versus South Georgia particularly - what would have happened if Russia didn't have vast oil reserves and the prime means of moving it to Europe- see the gunboat diplomacy they used on Germany to shut them up.
The global eco concerns over China's that their emerging economic power makes them able to stick two fingers up at the rest of the world .
and then think what teeth has Britain got in the 20 year descent into govenrmental anarchy to hav ethat facility to tell the rest to do one. we're a service industry island and that can be done anywhere with phone and internet.
:roll: I'll point out, for the second time, my comparisons were made purely to expose the fallacy of blindly rolling out the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" cliche.0 -
[quote=
Leaving behind any philosophical debates, let's think about this from an economic point of view. The UK police has some of the most sophisticated surveillance and detection systems in the world, yet we still live in a society, which, while not exactly dangerous, suffers fairly high crime rates compared to most other European countries (http://www.europeansafetyobservatory.eu ... e%20EU.pdf). Instead of spending the money on supplying the police with ever better surveillance and detection methods, why not admit that the cure rather than prevention method isn't working, investigate how other, safer, European countries keep their crime levels low, and invest the money in similar ways? Just a thought.[/quote]
+1
Understanding why society is like it is and the government facing up to what is going on is the key but they wont. They dont have the balls to. We as a country are too influenced by the US, not just by the government but by culture.
The UK government should look abroad to see what others do on a range of topics. We have lost our standards and morals as a country. Society is a giant jigsaw and the government seem intent on trying to put it together without all of the pieces.0
