Does this frame exist?

Jamey

Threads on here have had me looking at maybe buying a new frame to build into my perfect commuter but every single one has some kind of fault so I thought I'd ask if anyone knows of a frame that has ALL of the following:

• Designed for drop-bars.
• Disc brake mounts that don't interfere with mudguards or rack at either end.
• Proper headset, not integrated.
• 135mm drop-out spacing.
• Designed for gears (vertical drop-outs, etc)
• Full rack mounts.
• Full mudguard mounts (including the one on the bridge between stays).
• Able to take 700c wheels and 32mm tyres.
• Not ridiculously expensive (sub £500 really).
• Not retro/classic-looking.

Here are the bikes I've ruled out so far:

[*]Kenesis Decade Tripster - this was my front runner until I read Chris King's mini essay on why integrated headsets are evil, so now I've had to rule it out.[/*]
[*]Cotic Roadrat - Horizontal drop-outs are a faff to use with gears, plus disc mounts don't look like they've been designed with a rack and mudguards in mind.[/*]
[*]Singular Peregrine - Yeuch... Sorry, just couldn't ride that. And even if I liked the look I don't think it meets all the requirements still.[/*]
[*]Such/Roastie's new frame - Titanium is clearly going to push it over the price threshold I think (sorry Roastie). Also I wouldn't need the eccentric bottom bracket so that might be a little ugly, but perhaps that's a nitpick. The price would be the main concern, anyway.[/*]
So does anyone else know of any suggestions?

TomS

I've just been looking at the Edinburgh Bicycle Co-op Revolution Country Explorer '10, looks like it ticks most of your boxes. Its a complete touring bike but at £650 you could use it as the basis for your own build.

Tom

ride_whenever

bob jackson frame?

Roastie

I so know where you are coming from. A few months ago before Such took flight, I battled much the same search!

Another possibility is the Planet-X Uncle John Cross - has disc tabs (albeit on the seat stays, so "in the way"). Does (IIRC) has mounts for guards and a rack. The frame takes a traditional headset, so none of the integrated headset issues. Partnered up with a Kinesis DC19 (or a Kona or Salsa steel disc fork if weight is less of an issue), it would make a nice, light, lively bike. But again, it doesn't tick all the boxes.

I.t.o. Such Bikes, you are right, our first product is certainly going to be +500 quid, though we are targeting sub 1k (hopefully a fair margin below). Two things you may find interesting to know: a) the EBB shell will be a delete option if not required (it really is there for Alfine) and b) a lower priced steel or alu version of essentially the same concept is potentially in the pipeline.

Your other possibilities is having a custom frame made up by one of the local builders. I reckon you might sneak something in for around 500 provided you stuck with a fairly basic 4130 tubeset.

smegurmum

kona dew drop -'10 model not the '09....full build about £650, i know its not a frame only and over budget but could strip everything off and sell it

nicklouse

i am thinking one of the Focus Cyclocross frames but i am not sure about the rack mounts.
I wil have a look later on if you are interested.

Jamey

Hmmm... I think it's looking more and more like a custom steel frame is the answer. Even if it's not £500 at least I'll have a frame that's 100% perfect for me.

Two questions...

1) Can you just say stuff like "I'd like it to have inboard disc mounts" to a frame builder and they'll know exactly where to place them or do you need to give them precise measurements of where the disc mounts (or any other fittings) would need to go?

2) Bob Jackson look ace but they're in Leeds. Any recommendations (even second-hand) for similar frame builders down south? I would definitely need a fitting prior to working out the frame I need.

Jamey

One more question to add to the above - headsets...

I had a slightly panicky moment last night as I was trying to get to sleep when I thought that maybe because steel frames use thinner tubing than aluminium/carbon you might be restricted to using old-fashioned headsets like the quill type, where the stem is fixed and can't be swapped.

I've just looked at some pics of Roastie's frame and the Roadrat complete bikes and I can see that this isn't the case (phew) but would I need to ask for anything specific when getting a frame built? I just want to be able to use a good quality normal headset like a Hope or (if I feel rich) a Chris King.

nicklouse

the disc mount measurement should be know by the builder.

all you need to think of is to say if you want the calliper mounted to the seat or chain stay.

which does need though as to allow pannier fitting. but again the builder should know.

headsets for steel frames standard and internal and integrated can be utilised but again the frame builder will have a preferred option. again discuss all of the options with the builder.

Roastie

Cool! Good luck with the custom option, I'll be interested to see how it turns out. If you need drawings of the IS Standard disc mount specs, give me a shout. They are "open source" on the Inty, but were a little obscure to find.

For the chainstay brake location option, you might want to consider using purpose made dropouts rather than getting something made up by a builder, otherwise you might end up with either alignment or clearance issues. There is a company in the US that has started making suitable dropouts, let me know if you'd like the details. Otherwise, I'd be happy to help out with a bespoke dropout design which you could get laser cut (generally very reasonable cost) or machined/CNC'ed by a local shop.

As for headset specs, generally no problem with steel as the tubing is available in the right sizes for the 1 1/8". You could even do integrated in steel, not that you'd want to.

Mickey Eye

You need to keep posting updates (when you get them). Thanks to the last thread like this it looks like I'll be building a Singular Peregrine with Rohloff over the summer. This forum is expensive.

nicklouse

Roastie wrote:

Cool! Good luck with the custom option, I'll be interested to see how it turns out. If you need drawings of the IS Standard disc mount specs, give me a shout. They are "open source" on the Inty, but were a little obscure to find.

quite easy actually

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1590919

Roastie

Where was that thread when I was looking for the drawings!

Roastie

Btw, these are the dropouts I was taking about:


from Paragon Machine Works.

They do several versions, including a beefed up expedition version. Actually a lot cheaper than when I first looked at their stuff. For steel I'd get a local builder get a frame put together with these.

ride_whenever

they look pretty good actually, far better than the way i've gone about it on my inbred! I've only just got enough clearance for my caliper!

Jamey

Brilliant, thanks Roastie, this is all fantastically helpful stuff.

I think I might purchase a pair of those dropouts soonish so I've got them already when it comes to build time. But, as always, answers lead to more questions (sorry)...

1) Do I need the long mech version or the short mech version? Is it to do with gearing? If so I was planning to keep the same gearing as on my Tricross, so a big dinner plate cassette (11-32t) at the rear with an MTB-style mech like Deore LX or maybe something slightly fancier up the Shimano range.

2) Where's the beefed up version of those dropouts on their website? I could only see the normal ones (was looking in the steel section - is that right? Or do I want stainless?)
Edit: I think I've found it. Is this the one I want?
http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/stor ... 49509.aspx

3) They say the dropouts don't work with all calipers but I assume they work fine with Avid BBs, do they? I think that's what you're (Roastie) testing your new frame with, isn't it? That's probably what I'd go for too.

4) What about disc mounts at the front, on the fork? How do I stop them from getting in the way of mudguards? Is forward facing the solution to that problem? I noticed you (Roastie again) still have them facing backward on the Such prototype. Are you still able to fit mudguards like this?

5) Still after frame builder recommendations down south if anyone knows of one.

Roastie

I'm not too sure about the effects of running a long hanger with a road type cassette or vice versa, but I'd hazard a guess that running a long hanger with a road set-up would be fine, but that you could have issues running a 11-32 on a short hanger.

Yep: those be the dropouts I was referring to. Ask the builder you eventually choose re: stainless or no. If you want to leave the dropouts as polished bare metal, stainless looks good, but there are issues brazing it that you don't have with plain steel. FWIW, I'd keep it simple and go with plain steel.

BB7s do need quite a bit of room (compared to hydros) for the swing of the caliper arm. Looking at the Paragon dropout, I'd say that they probably will give enough clearance (look similar in proportion to my design, the seat-stay tab looks offset enough to the rear), but I'm sure if you dropped them an email they'd confirm this. The Avid is the most popular option, so I'd be surprised if it didn't work.

The fork we are using is the Kinesis DC19 which has very tidy mudguard mounts that are well clear of the caliper, so no probs with the caliper in the standard location. I'm not so keen on having the caliper out front as (IMO) it is more prone to being bumped. I'll have mudguards fitted this weekend, will post a pic if you'd like.

Unfortunately no knowledge of local builders other than the obvious ones like Villers Velo. There must be quite a few though.

MichaelW

There is a nice example of chainstays disc mounts at
http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/fast-lane/

Front mudguards can be fitted on disk forks but you need to bend the stays under the disk. An alternative would be to place the mudguard eyelets halfway up the forks like the Thorn Sherpa. You might need to avoid the disk cable run, maybe a combined eyelet/cable guide braze-on would work.

nicklouse

re mech cages it depends on the range of teeth you plan on using.
info here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12546123

Jamey

I think Paragon only do the beefy version in titanium so I'd probably go with that... I assume there are no issues using Ti dropouts with a steel frame, are there?

Getting the builder to put front guard mounts halfway up the fork sounds like a solution, I think. Do frame builders typically install a headset for you and face the shells? Or are you expected to take the newly-made frame to your LBS afterwards to get those done?

nicklouse

joining Ti and steel is not possible.

the frame builder will have some suitable or will get some.

Roastie

Mixing Ti and steel won't be possible with traditional building methods. The standard design looks like it will do the business anyways, so short of an MTB application, I reckon it would be fine.

A good builder should do the reaming and facing, as well as chase all the threads, but probably won't install a headset as this is a fairly standard assembly operation. LBS can do that for you, or a friend with the right tools.

Jamey

Phew, glad I checked that

Guess I'll go for normal steel. Shame though as I wanted the beefy ones just purely because of the amount of weight my bike carries every day.

nicklouse

Jamey
dont forget that to have the same strength as steel Ti does need to be "fatter".

Jamey

Cheers Nick... I actually prefer the look of fatter tubes so I'm now beginning to wonder whether I actually should go for a Ti frame after all.

Which then begs the question of whether to save money and go for Roastie's off-the-peg one, perhaps... Except that now I've started to like the idea of having my own custom geometry.

Gah... Can you get custom Aluminium frames made? Then I can have fat tubes, custom geometry and cheapness.

nicklouse

the labour cost will be your main one.
EG a bike company that i know sends 853 tubes from the UK to Taiwan for welding into a frame and then sent back. As it costs less than having it done in the UK.

the problem with Aluminum is that it will need heat/acid/age treating after-wards.

Ti and Steel dont (well some can benefit from some treatment).

again what i would do is find some builders and then look at what they make.

then talk to them about what you want from a ride,

Fat tubes can give a harsh ride.

Roastie

nicklouse wrote:

Jamey
dont forget that to have the same strength as steel Ti does need to be "fatter".

(Sorry to be a smart a*se, but) Common 3Al2.5V Ti has a higher tensile strength than a basic chromoly steel (4130, or Reynolds 525) - ~900MPa vs ~800MPa, but steel has much better fatigue resistance and is the stiffer material - hence why Ti frame tubes are typically "fatter".

Roastie

@ Jamey: Custom geometry/fit will be an option, as will be EBB delete. If you are keen to know more, I'd be glad to discuss details offline (prob not appropriate on a public forum).

Jamey

While I'm talking about my dream bike - what's the difference between Avid Road BB7s and Avid Road BB5s?

I can't see any difference on their website apart from the aesthetics which admittedly are nicer on the BB7s.

nicklouse

but then compare it to steel for a similar price bracket frame.

so say 853?

853 - Seamless air-hardening heat-treated. UTS: 1250-1400 MPa, density 7.78 g/cm3

while Ti

6Al-4V - Seamless ELI Grade. UTS: 900-1150 MPa, density 4.42 g/cm3
3Al-2.5V - Seamless. UTS: 810-960 MPa, density 4.48 g/cm3


and lets through in some Aluminum

7005 - Al-Zn alloy. UTS: 400 MPa, density 2.78 g/cm3
6061 - Al-Si-Mg alloy. UTS: 325 MPa , density 2.70 g/cm3
X-100 - Al-Li Alloy. UTS: 550-600 MPa, density 2.65 g/cm3

but then you also have what tube profiles are actually available with also has issues.

IE the seat and chainstays from Reynolds in 853 are the same profile/section as the Cr-Mo (IIRC) so there is no weight saving just more strenth and stiffness so many builders use the Cr-Mo as it give a better feel.

Roastie

Jamey wrote:

While I'm talking about my dream bike - what's the difference between Avid Road BB7s and Avid Road BB5s?

I can't see any difference on their website apart from the aesthetics which admittedly are nicer on the BB7s.

BB5s have pad adjustment only on one side, for BB7s the pads are individually adjustable. I haven't tried the 5s, but having each side adjustable makes the 7s a doddle to set-up - from my very limited experience with them, I'd say the premium is worth it..