Quick employment law question...

_Brun_

I'm in a full-time job which I've had for three and a half years, but am considering a change of scenery. Considering I've never signed any sort of contract, am I obliged to work any sort of statutory notice period?

disgruntledgoat

I'd call HR to be doubly sure, but if you've been accepting their pay-checks and paid leave then I would assume you have a contract of some description and a notice period within it.

If you haven't got an HR person, then sod it, get yerself away (but wait til payday!)

pneumatic

Yes, by turning up every day, doing the work and taking the money, you have agreed to the implied terms of the contract.

However, the company has technically breached employment law by not giving you a written statement of terms and conditions within 28 days so, although there is not much you can do about it in practice, it might be a bargaining chip for negotiating early release!

Talk to HR.

Crapaud

Contact ACAS! I've found them very useful in the past.

Monday–Friday, 08:00–20:00 – 08457 47 47 47

The Acas Helpline is the place to go for both employers and employees who are involved in an employment dispute or are seeking information on employment rights and rules. The Helpline provides clear, confidential, independent and impartial advice to assist the caller in resolving issues in the workplace.

Ollieda

If your sure you haven't signed any contract of employment then in simple terms you're not employed by that person / company so you could just up and leave. However they might try and claim that there was a verbal contract of services between you and them, i.e. you had verbally agreed that you would perform a certain service, work, and in exchange they would pay you for this service and that having been doing this for 3 and half years would show that you both accept such contract. It's not employment but it's close, i.e. if you pay someone to come and professionally clean your house and you pay them for this, they are providing a service and you are paying for that service, you don't "employ" them.

I think statute says if you have worked for them for over a month then the minimum notice is one week but if there is a longer period required in your statement of employment particulars (which you should have got withing 2 months of starting your job) then it is the longer which is followed. However as you say you don't have a contract I doubt you have a statement either.

Best to check with you're employer just as to your position, there might be complications like how tax is paid and so on, but whats the worst that can happen, they might try and get you to sign a contract, you refuse, they ask you to leave.....end result reached.

pneumatic

Ollieda wrote:

If your sure you haven't signed any contract of employment then in simple terms you're not employed by that person / company so you could just up and leave. .

Unfortunately not so. Contracts are evidenced by actions as much as they are by words or documents.

cee

pneumatic wrote:

Ollieda wrote:

If your sure you haven't signed any contract of employment then in simple terms you're not employed by that person / company so you could just up and leave. .

Unfortunately not so. Contracts are evidenced by actions as much as they are by words or documents.

correct pneumatic....

by accepting their salary and going to work and doing your job, you are effectively agreeing to a rolling implied contract.

phone ACAS.

Splottboy

I thought that only for up to 2 weeks could you walk out with any problems?
I did it to take up my current job, and rang ACAS beforehand to check.
Called into the emplyer and left a message with a colleague as the manageress was out.
ACAS told me that I didn't have to put it into writing, so I didn't.

Later, the manageress of the first job rang me, ranting and raving that I couldn't do it, and I needed to give a months notice. Tried to say I'd let them down, when in fact, the job I applied for and had got, WASN'T the one they wanted me to do.( Moving the goalposts...) Tried to tell her she was wrong, but the Bee-atch wouldn't listen.

But, thinking back, I may have signed a contract, but this was voided due to the 2 Week rule.

cjw

Look on this forum as they are pretty expert at employment advice as opposed to a bunch of guys on bikes

http://www.i-resign.com/uk/discussion/

antooony

Just leave, give them a weeks notice and go. That's what I did once when I had the chance of a dream job, no way was I letting that opportunity pass me by. The firm I left had no qualms about making people redundant at the drop of a hat so I felt no guilt, maybe I saved someones job that day.

Its not something I would normally do, I'd usually serve any notice required but sometimes you have to look out for No1 and put yourself first esp if it involves a better brighter future.

Good luck.

cjw

Just be aware that in not working any notice required by you're contract your are exposing yourself to;

1. they can came after you for damages resulting from your breach of contract
2. your reference would probably say "unrealiable as this individual left with no notice causing us substatial problem and losses - employ at your risk".

Once again do not rely on people who have uninformed and incorrect knowledge to advise you.

socrates

Surely contract or not, would it not just be good manners to give some sort of notice.

_Brun_

Cheers all.

From ACAS's website:

Both you and your employer are normally entitled to a minimum period of notice of termination of employment. After one month's employment, you must give your employer at least one week's notice; this minimum is unaffected by longer service. Your employer must give you:

* at least one week's notice after one month's employment
* two weeks after two years
* three weeks after three years and so on up to 12 weeks after 12 years or more

However, you and your employer will be entitled to a longer period of notice than the statutory minimum if this is provided for in the contract of employment.

Or in other words, having never signed a contract of any sort it appears I'm only required to give one week's notice.

To be honest I'm not looking to burn bridges if I can help it but just wondered where I stood, particularly because my potential new employer may be keep for me to start ASAP.

markwalker

socrates wrote:

Surely contract or not, would it not just be good manners to give some sort of notice.

+ 1miliion

Ive dealt with this every day for the last 20years. The simple truth is ACAS contracts employers unions advice on forums (including mine ) is all fine but if youre leaving common curtesy saves a lot of problems. Always. And if courtesy is not extended in return then at least you have done the right thing. having a go at an employer or employee just leads to stress and problems that come back to bite people sometimes years later.

Anyone who thinks verbal references dont happen or wont be acted on is living on another planet irrespective of what barrack room lawyers union reps and the law itself have to say.

Manage your career dont let it be something that manages you.

stonehouse

Only polite and correct to give a reasonable amount of notice, exception to this would be if they stopped paying you for some reason IMHO.

They are far more likely to refuse to give a reference rather than a damning one which could be challenged legally.

I once had a contract that only stated that the employer would give me a weeks notice, no mention of the notice period I would be expected to work. When I gave a weeks notice they tried to claim 4 weeks from me, I'd only been there a miserable 6 months so told them too bad, your getting what you offered me! I

cjw

_Brun_ wrote:

Cheers all.


Or in other words, having never signed a contract of any sort it appears I'm only required to give one week's notice.

You don't need to sign an employment contract for you to be bound by one. If the company has terms and conditions (eg staff handbook or the like), the fact that you have not objected to it and have been taking the money in exchange for your labour means you are bound by it. There is always a contract of employment between and employer and employee regardless. http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/lif ... employment

pneumatic

cjw wrote:

Look on this forum as they are pretty expert at employment advice as opposed to a bunch of guys on bikes

http://www.i-resign.com/uk/discussion/

Some guys on bikes also have profesional qualifications! Some might even be Fellows of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development!

However, agreed about courtesy. Storming out of any relationship leaves you open to reputational difficulties that it is best to avoid if you can.

cjw

pneumatic wrote:

cjw wrote:

Look on this forum as they are pretty expert at employment advice as opposed to a bunch of guys on bikes

http://www.i-resign.com/uk/discussion/

Some guys on bikes also have profesional qualifications! Some might even be Fellows of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development!

Agreed, But here there are probably only one or two - maybe one of whom will be logged on and answer.

You could also ask on the personnel forums about which is the best fork to buy - and you'll probably find one or two who will understand the question as well. A few will try to answer you on the basis of 'they had once riden a bike as a kid' and therfore feel qualified to advise - and clearly MUST share that advice.

As you saw from the responses to the OP question, they included;

If your sure you haven't signed any contract of employment then in simple terms you're not employed by that person / company so you could just up and leave

beverick

With reference to 'full time' employment.

After one month, and assuming that there are no specific exeptions, no clause in your contract of employment or no due precedents (ie formed by people leaving having been either on the same grade or doing the same job), the generally accepted period for PAID notice by the employee is one calandar week (ie seven days). From the employer it depends on length of service but 1 week or, after two years, one week per year of employment up to 12 weeks is near enough.

Irrespective of what is in your contract your notice period is negotiable by both sides up to the point you leave and, unless otherwise agreed, you are obliged to work your entire notice period (ie forgo holiday). If you ask to leave earlier than your notice period your employer is obviously under no obligation to pay you after your agreed leaving date - but they might. However, if your employer wants you to leave earlier they are obliged to pay you for your entire notice period although this will usually be negotiated. One last thing, if you leave later than your required notice period make sure your employer isn't revoking any employement terms such as continuity of service, pension contributions, healthcare cover, 'death in service' benefit, car benefits, travel allowance or holiday entitlement. They probably wont but it has been known.

Splottboy wrote:

I thought that only for up to 2 weeks could you walk out with any problems?

There are exceptions for certain jobs but the period is actually one month (generally accepted to be 4 weeks). You're still required to give 'reasonable notice' though - although what that turns out to be depends on you and your employer.

Regarding not taking up an offer (and especially not turning up on day 1), we went through this last year when a 'newby' didn't turn up. You should contact the employer as soon as you know you're not going to turn up (ie BEFORE your agreed starting date) and tell them that you're now rejecting their offer of employment. This is especially relevant if, as happened to us, our prospecitve employee accepted two jobs. By accpeting our offer he was actually in breach of contract with both employers. We went to tribunal and the employee came very close to being dismissed from his other job. We would have won if we'd have pushed but scaring the c**p out of him worked for us.

If you don't turn up on day one you're in breach of contract and could have a claim for damages (covering at least the cost of your hiring and hiring an alternative employee) set against you. This could also include costs due to a recruitment agent if appropriate.

Bob