Should team radio be banned

dougzz

Yes.

Safety BS is just that. It allows too controlled racing, and doesn't reward the effort of breakaways. Plus if you believe that the sport is essentially entertainment it decreases the value by making it all to formula.

pedro118118

I've long-since thought that radios have steralised racing.

And I'm not convinced by the safety argument either - marshalls and the race handbook can take care of the road/furniture etc. Surely a rider can tell when the weather is treacherous?!

I'm with the 'Badger', who described them as a "‘Game Boy’ that has a gigolo attached at the end telling the racer when to take a piss”.

pontarlier_pete

Another "yes". Make them think for themselves.

northernneil

+1

teagar

I was for the ban, but this chap convinced me otherwise.

http://cyclocosm.com/2005/12/no-radio-rant/

http://cyclocosm.com/2009/06/the-four-i ... ee-racing/

iainf72

No - Radio's don't make that much difference.


Cosmo argues the point very well. Better than I ever could.

terongi

No.

It depends how much of a rich understanding and appreciation you have of the sport.

It's a bit like chess. (in fact many writers compare road racing with chess). If you don't understand the intricacies of the strategy and tactics, it just looks boring.

If you do appreciate the masterplan behind the team strategy then it is intellectually gripping as well as a great sporting spectacle. For example, Sastre's TdF victory in 08 was largely (but not only) down to brilliant management and tactical planning by Bjarne Riis which would not have been possible without race radios. Race radios enable the management to bring the best out of the riders. You then have the best of everything out on the road.

It is tempting to think that it would be a more exciting spectator sport if you took away the thing which helps teams to carry out a strategy. That would be superficial. If you want reallly exciting unpredictable racing, then watch amateur racing. We watch the top pros because it is exciting to see what human strength agility and ingenuity can produce in competition. Team management (on and off the road) is a part of that.

The fact that Bernard Hinault and others like him support a radio ban is irrelevant. he is a grumpy ex-pro (brilliant in his day) who thinks that the new generation have it all soft and that everyone should know how tough it was in his day. Fair enough, but it's a sentimental argument, not a logical one.

intothe12

get rid of the radio's and force the rider to race and work towards pre-agreed plans that need to constantly change and be updated as the race develops.

dougzz

terongi wrote:

No.

It depends how much of a rich understanding and appreciation you have of the sport.

A tad arrogant don't you think, to claim you're right based on your degree of understanding and appreciation of the sport. Presumably have more understanding and appreciation of the sport than Hinault, given you think differently to him.

teagar

With regards to te Hinault comment(s), to quote a part I linked before:

Bernard Hinault, who’s said that radios make cyclists “just a ‘Game Boy’ that has a gigolo attached at the end telling the racer when to take a p!ss”. Big words from a man who won his final Tour de France by having his DS to drive up the road and call off Greg Lemond.

squired

Of course we had an example in the Tour of Australia of what can happen without radios thanks to Astana. Rider gets dropped and no-one notices. Maybe without radios they would be forced to be more aware of what is going on around them? I would certainly like to see riders doing things on instinct rather than just according to orders.

maddog 2

Ban them for half the stages and leave the other half radio'd.

If the stages without radios end up more exciting then we'll have the answer. Simple.

mercsport

Yes.

I can't recall a GT that's not been won by the guy in the car trailing the race since the introduction of race radios ( yes, ok, ...loads I expect. You'll tell me ! ). Except, maybe, Contador last year when he chose to ignore JB's protestations that must have deafened him as he made his wonderful move up the mountain last year to see off LA.

It's not sentimental twaddle to wish for the return to the days of individualism. To me radios have murdered the spirit of the free thinking, self directed individual ( the wonderful 'grumpy ex-pro' Hainault, for example) and reduced bike racing to that of a regimented clash of armies. Wherein the shaven headed foot soldier has to march in step with his chums and obey unquestioningly orders from the officer elite. Perhaps 'automatons' might be a better description here than armies.

OK, I'll accept it's sentimental. But it's not wrong for harbouring a yearning for what I believe to be the better days of earlier years.

afx237vi

Someone should ask Pedro Horrillo if he thinks race radios should be banned.

I think the "more exciting racing" argument is something of a red herring. If there are no radios and the peloton doesn't want a breakaway to succeed, they just won't let it get so far ahead, or reel it in earlier.

pedro118118

That's a rather condescending response.

Frankly, if I want to watch chess, I'll watch chess. Or American Football. Or battleships.

Bottom line is we don't know how bike racing would have evolved without radios - it may have been worse, as good, or better than it is now - we'll simply never know.

I enjoy watching the team tactics unravel, but at times it does smack of a DS simply 'pusing buttons' and breaks/attacks/moves are kept on a leash, which takes some of the surprise out of racing and there's an innevitability about the 'catch'. A well-excecuted plan by a strong team with a good team leader is likely to succeed come what may, but I like the odd surprise and I think a radio-less peleton would provide that from time-to-time. We didn't see that in the Tour though, because the teams/riders went on strike and put a gun to the head of ASO. If all races stood firm, the teams/riders wouldn't have that option.

Then again, perhaps my understanding/appreciation isn't as rich as others and the intricacies, strategy and tactics are too much for me.

iainf72

"The Catch" always was brilliantly timed - I don't believe radio's have made a significant impact there.

DaveyL

We'd have a much more lively thread if the word "Shack" had been strategically inserted into the thread title...

pontarlier_pete

terongi wrote:

It depends how much of a rich understanding and appreciation you have of the sport.

:roll:


IMO part of cycling is the individual rider making decisions, for himself and (if team leader) for his team. I've no objection to team-mates having radios between themselves, but I don't like DS's having radios and pulling the strings, and don't see that as part of the sport. I therefore obviously don't understand the sport and should go back to dribbling in my soup.

teagar

Yeah, I'm 'cos Riis had everything to do with the most exciting finish in the 2007 TdF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM

:roll:

terongi

teagar wrote:

I was for the ban, but this chap convinced me otherwise.

http://cyclocosm.com/2005/12/no-radio-rant/

http://cyclocosm.com/2009/06/the-four-i ... ee-racing/

+1

These 2 articles really put this debate to bed

dulldave

terongi wrote:

teagar wrote:

I was for the ban, but this chap convinced me otherwise.

http://cyclocosm.com/2005/12/no-radio-rant/

http://cyclocosm.com/2009/06/the-four-i ... ee-racing/

+1

These 2 articles really put this debate to bed

Just read them. I don't think they go anywhere near putting the debate to bed. It challenges the arguments for banning them but neither articles put across a strong point in favour of race radios.

You'll find equally eloquent arguments in favour of banning race radios from people with plenty of experience racing at a top level. Michael Barry and Joe Parkin are 2 that spring to mind.

iainf72

From what I'm seeing in this debate, it looks more like what you don't want is DS's rather than radio's. Back in the 70's when van Impe won the Tour, if you believe Guimard, it's because Guimard told him what to do. Does that make him a lesser rider?

ultimobici

iainf72 wrote:

From what I'm seeing in this debate, it looks more like what you don't want is DS's rather than radio's. Back in the 70's when van Impe won the Tour, if you believe Guimard, it's because Guimard told him what to do. Does that make him a lesser rider?

Yes but instead of a private radio message, Van Impe got a very public telling off. In short Guimard told him to attack Zoetemelk or he'd run him off the edge of the road!

ultimobici

afx237vi wrote:

Someone should ask Pedro Horrillo if he thinks race radios should be banned.

Why, what does that have to do with anything?

afx237vi

ultimobici wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Someone should ask Pedro Horrillo if he thinks race radios should be banned.

Why, what does that have to do with anything?

When Horrillo crashed and fell 80 metres off the side of a mountain in the Giro, no-one saw it. The only reason anyone knew anything had happened was because one of his team-mates saw his bike leaning against a railing and radioed back to the team car to tell them something might be wrong.

IIRC, all the team cars had already gone past the crash scene, so if the team-mate hadn't radioed back, no-one would have even known he had crashed.

LangerDan

Let the riders have radios but take the bloody TVs out of the team cars.( I can't imagine any other circumstance where we would tolerate cars travelling at 30 - 70mph in close proximity to people while the driver watched Eurosport, simultaneously spoke to this riders and prepratore using radios and mobile phones, swore in three continental languages at the neutral service motorbike, ate a breakfast roll and touched himself inappropriately while Googling pictures of his star rider's latest squeeze.)

Riders get to have the contact they want without undue tactical interference from the gaffer.

dougzz

afx237vi wrote:

ultimobici wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Someone should ask Pedro Horrillo if he thinks race radios should be banned.

Why, what does that have to do with anything?

When Horrillo crashed and fell 80 metres off the side of a mountain in the Giro, no-one saw it. The only reason anyone knew anything had happened was because one of his team-mates saw his bike leaning against a railing and radioed back to the team car to tell them something might be wrong.

IIRC, all the team cars had already gone past the crash scene, so if the team-mate hadn't radioed back, no-one would have even known he had crashed.

A one way emergency beeper, or in some way tracking the (I assume) RFID chips they use for timing, I still don't see this as a need for radios.

Tom Butcher

I can't see that there are any really good arguments for keeping radios.

Those two articles linked don't really put forward any kind of case. It's pretty clear cut - if you think riders should have to make more decisions themselves in the heat of battle then ban them - if you think it's better that a DS tells riders what to do right down to whether to chase individual attacks then keep them. It's not just about pulling back breaks on flat stages it's about when the favourites go rider to rider - do you follow or do you wait - the decisions that can win races.

moray_gub

Tom Butcher wrote:

I can't see that there are any really good arguments for keeping radios.

Those two articles linked don't really put forward any kind of case. It's pretty clear cut - if you think riders should have to make more decisions themselves in the heat of battle then ban them - if you think it's better that a DS tells riders what to do right down to whether to chase individual attacks then keep them. It's not just about pulling back breaks on flat stages it's about when the favourites go rider to rider - do you follow or do you wait - the decisions that can win races.

The effect of radios is overexagerrated imo , some races at times were dull long before the advent of radios and will be long after they are banned (if that happens). Many factors account for this terrain,weather,ability of riders ,length of race,half way through a GT etc As for favourires ive always felt favourites themselves know when to go and when to wait usually depending on how they are feeling at the time............ its the legs that decide whether they can chase or not not some geezer sitting yelling in their lughole

ms_tree

LangerDan wrote:

Let the riders have radios but take the bloody TVs out of the team cars.( I can't imagine any other circumstance where we would tolerate cars travelling at 30 - 70mph in close proximity to people while the driver watched Eurosport, simultaneously spoke to this riders and prepratore using radios and mobile phones, swore in three continental languages at the neutral service motorbike, ate a breakfast roll and touched himself inappropriately while Googling pictures of his star rider's latest squeeze.)

Riders get to have the contact they want without undue tactical interference from the gaffer.

I was going to say something along the same lines, but you got in first (and slightly more colourful than I would!).