Pot Holes!

Tri harder

Following our two recent cold snaps, and I'm sure anyone who has ventured out since then will agree, the roads are some what battered and full of enormous potholes. It's bad enough in a car let alone on a bike.

Whilst out on a training ride on Saturday 40miles from home I managed to hit a large hole. Unfortunately it instantly popped my rear tyre and put a flat spot on my new DuraAce 50mm carbon wheel! Fortunately it was on the flat and managed to pull over safely, downhill may have been a different outcome!

Due to the damage to the wheel, even after two tube changes I kept suffering punctures to the new tubes and ended up walking the bike to the nearest train station, catching a train and then grabbing a cab to get home. Frustrating to say the least.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to firstly get the pot hole filled in to prevent someone else suffering the same fate?

Secondly is there any way of claiming for the damage to the wheel, if it was a cheap or even an old wheel I wouldn't be that bothered, however as it was new and pretty costly some assistance from the local council / highways agency etc.. would be appreciated.

I have my doubts as to whether I could claim for some assistance however if you have any useful advice I would like to hear it.

northernneil

yes you can claim for compensation from the council - however as i understand it the council have to be aware that the pot hole exisits before they can accept any liability. I think someone has had to have reported the hole to the council through thier official channel first.

good luck and let us know how you get on

bad company

I tried to claim for pot hold damage to my car. The council declined as they said it was a new pot hole they were unawar of. To be fair when I went back less than 24 hours later they had filled it in.

Tri harder

As an interim update, I have contacted the relevant councils highway department, I explained what had happened and told them where the holes were and they tell me they are trying to fix the potholes as quickly as possible on this particular road.

The pothole that caused the damage was actually marked for fixing, so therefore the council are aware that it exists. The lady I spoke to was very friendly and helpful, however she did try to deter me when I asked if there is anyway for claiming for the damage caused. None the less I persisted and she's going to post out a claim form.

We'll have to see if they will compensate for the damage caused and hopefully they will quickly fix the holes to prevent it happening again![/img]

downfader

Might be a good time to join one of the big cycling clubs (CTC or BC) as they can offer a bit of help in this respect, even legal help if you get injured.

sirmy

Generally if you hit a pot ole which the council knows about they have a maximum amount of time in which to fix the problem. The council should, ideally, have a written potocol for fixing potholes and you may be able to get them to diclose how long they had been aare of the hole. However given the recent weather a judge may be more lenient towards the council than they would otherwise be if it got to court

on the road

http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/

ohlala!

I think the council is scratching their heads at the moment trying to find resources to compensate for the claim. Either increasing council tax or no bin collection for one week.

Pip13

Does anyone know what the time allowance is from when the coucil is advised to when they should have dealt with it. I reported 2 crators yesterday and want to know what the law is if there is one?

on the road

I don't think there is a law, if the money's not there then they probably won't fill in the holes.

downfader

Pip13 wrote:

Does anyone know what the time allowance is from when the coucil is advised to when they should have dealt with it. I reported 2 crators yesterday and want to know what the law is if there is one?

I have reported some potholes for over 15 years. It depends on all kinds of factors.

spen666

Pip13 wrote:

Does anyone know what the time allowance is from when the coucil is advised to when they should have dealt with it. I reported 2 crators yesterday and want to know what the law is if there is one?

in a reasonable time

Dess1e

Why were you training on carbon wheels?

jthef

But if every one logged at least 1 pot hole on a ride hopefully if some one comes a croper on it later on they can get there gear fixed.
I like the fill that hole web site as you can see what other people have logged and when.

pneumatic

Now look: we all know the weather has been exceptionally bad. We all know that the country is nearly bankrupt (worst borrowing ratio of all the developed countries). We all know that the roads are cracked to pieces.

In these circumstances, if you can't adjust your riding to the conditions, why on earth should you be given what little money there is left to fix the roads?

spen666

pneumatic wrote:

Now look: we all know the weather has been exceptionally bad. We all know that the country is nearly bankrupt (worst borrowing ratio of all the developed countries). We all know that the roads are cracked to pieces.

In these circumstances, if you can't adjust your riding to the conditions, why on earth should you be given what little money there is left to fix the roads?

Why?

Because the council have a duty of care to road users

By failing to construct / maintain roads properly they have breached that duty

As a result of the breach of duty of care individual has suffered loss and has right to be compensated


If council are not liable for their breaches of duty of care, there is no reason for them to spend money maintaining roads, and they can instead vote it to themselves in bigger expenses

on the road

pneumatic wrote:

Now look: we all know the weather has been exceptionally bad. We all know that the country is nearly bankrupt (worst borrowing ratio of all the developed countries). We all know that the roads are cracked to pieces.

In these circumstances, if you can't adjust your riding to the conditions, why on earth should you be given what little money there is left to fix the roads?

You don't by any chance work for the council do you?

pneumatic

on the road wrote:

pneumatic wrote:

Now look: we all know the weather has been exceptionally bad. We all know that the country is nearly bankrupt (worst borrowing ratio of all the developed countries). We all know that the roads are cracked to pieces.

In these circumstances, if you can't adjust your riding to the conditions, why on earth should you be given what little money there is left to fix the roads?

You don't by any chance work for the council do you?

No, I work for the Devil, in his legal department!

I also pay Council Tax, Income Tax, Value Added Tax and goodness knows what other kinds of tax and, given that we don't actually generate wealth any more in the UK (we just pass it around between us), I have the unpleasant sensation that it is not enough to keep us in the manner to which we have become accustomed to live.

A further thought, and then I'll shut up (see below ). What about insurance, does that not cover damage to one's property in the case of an accident?

spen666

pneumatic wrote:

on the road wrote:

pneumatic wrote:

Now look: we all know the weather has been exceptionally bad. We all know that the country is nearly bankrupt (worst borrowing ratio of all the developed countries). We all know that the roads are cracked to pieces.

In these circumstances, if you can't adjust your riding to the conditions, why on earth should you be given what little money there is left to fix the roads?

You don't by any chance work for the council do you?

No, I work for the Devil, in his legal department!

I also pay Council Tax, Income Tax, Value Added Tax and goodness knows what other kinds of tax and, given that we don't actually generate wealth any more in the UK (we just pass it around between us), I have the unpleasant sensation that it is not enough to keep us in the manner to which we have become accustomed to live.

A further thought, and then I'll shut up. What about insurance, does that not cover damage to one's property in the case of an accident?

what about insurance?

Its the Council who are breaching their duty to you. It is the negligent party who should be compensating the victim, not the victim who has to pay out insurance to cover himself against the council’s negligence

Why not say that motorists shouldn't have to compensate those they kill or injure in accidents- after all the cyclist/ pedestrian has insurance

As I said before, if the council are not liable for their negligence, they won’t bother to do any repairs to roads as there is no incentive to do so. They will pay themselves more in allowances and perks instead

beverick

northernneil wrote:

yes you can claim for compensation from the council

Assuming you're on a public road, it's the relevant road authority who will be responsible and this is not necessarily the local council. Admittedly, for many roads this will be the local council but for a (reducing) number of major roads the Highways Agency are responsible.

I don't know where you stand with private or unadopted roads.

Bob

on the road

I imagine with private roads it will be whoever owns the road (it's unlikely to be the council or the highways authority), but you might have a problem if you were on that road without the landowners permission. As for unadopted roads, that will be tricky, I might be wrong but I believe all the residents living on that road are responsible for the upkeep of the road.

pneumatic

Who do Mountain bikers sue when they smash their front wheels on a tree root? Farmer? Forestry Commission? the Squirrels that live in the tree? God?

on the road

Maybe they should sue the tree

sirmy

spen666 wrote:

As I said before, if the council are not liable for their negligence, they won’t bother to do any repairs to roads as there is no incentive to do so. They will pay themselves more in allowances and perks instead

So you consider a pthole to be evidence of negligence, just what planet do you live on? Potholes develope in roads, thats an unavoidable fact of life. If you know how to lay a road that will not develope potholes then you must patent the idea now, you'll make a fortune.

As I said before most councils have a written protocol for dealing with potholes, some will require action where a carriageway pothole is 40mm deep, some 50mm. Potholes will be prioritised depending on location and on the type of road.

Councils cannot inspect every road every day and after the recent weather they cannot fill all potholes as soon as they are reported. If you're still not happy check out section 56 of the 1980 Highways Act (Proceedings for an order to repair highway)

Just take care out there

Oh, and Speny, since I work for a council and can't even get myself graded to the level my job should be, tell me how I get these perks of which you speak with such authority. Idiot

spen666

sirmy wrote:

spen666 wrote:

As I said before, if the council are not liable for their negligence, they won’t bother to do any repairs to roads as there is no incentive to do so. They will pay themselves more in allowances and perks instead

So you consider a pthole to be evidence of negligence, just what planet do you live on? Potholes develope in roads, thats an unavoidable fact of life. If you know how to lay a road that will not develope potholes then you must patent the idea now, you'll make a fortune.

The failure of the council to repair the road in a reasonable time is evidence of neglicence in English law.

The council / relevant highway authority have a legal duty to maintain the highways.

sorry- I think the question seems to be better asked what planet are you living on. clearly one where you have little understanding of the legal position and responsibilites of the relevant highway authorities

As I said before most councils have a written protocol for dealing with potholes, some will require action where a carriageway pothole is 40mm deep, some 50mm. Potholes will be prioritised depending on location and on the type of road.

Councils cannot inspect every road every day and after the recent weather they cannot fill all potholes as soon as they are reported. If you're still not happy check out section 56 of the 1980 Highways Act (Proceedings for an order to repair highway)

Just take care out there

Oh, and Speny, since I work for a council and can't even get myself graded to the level my job should be, tell me how I get these perks of which you speak with such authority. Idiot

How do you get perks? Try being a councillor- as I was referring to their perks

I think I have a far better understanding of the law than you given tyou seem from your opening remark unable to understand how a pothole can be evidence of negligence

Stop being bitter and get real. no one has said the council have to keep roads in perfect condition.

They have to have a system of inspection and to repair in a reasonable time defects in the highway.

Fiunnily enough a pothole is a defect in the highway.

sirmy

A pot hole is evidence of a defect in a road surface not negelect, you say yourself "Fiunnily enough a pothole is a defect in the highway" Fiunny that. And my opening remarks (to he second quote) are an example of how a highway authority will priortize filling potholes, not a statement of law, how you can read it as such beats me. Potholes are a result of wear and tear, if you don't want to wear out a road don't use it and as I asked if you know how to make a road that won't develope potholes let the rest of the world know. I do know the legal responsibilities of highways authorities, and I do know that they are tepmered by practical considersations, the immediate actioning of potholes over 40 or 50mm (depending on where you live) shallower holes taking longer. If you want to persist in implyng that all potholes must be filled immediately then you are doing yourself and those reading your words a disservice

Couldn't resist putting this in "They have to have a system of inspection and to repair in a reasonable time defects in the highway." Isn't that what I said, what do you think would be in the protocol? Don't you read beforte replying? And of course not all defects are immediatley actionable.

Anyway I'll leave it at this, if you want perfect roads then vote for a party that is willing to increase your taxes to the levels they need to be at the next election. And since you're our resident legal brain try telling people how long a council has to fix a pothole (as a satrt - if it's not 40mm it can be up to six months)

Oh, yeah, and I'll be bitter if I want to, so there!

nickdrums

I have set up a petition to the Prime Minister to try to bring some order to this pot hole thing. I have called it a Motorists Charter as that's where I believe the money is to fix the problem, however as a road cyclist I am acutely aware of the problems and danger for cyclists.

Please sign the petition here:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/MotoristCharter/

and please pass this on to anyone who you think would sign. There is also a Facebook group for your pot hole stories and pcitures:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=327905212793

Many thanks ... Nick.

rake

the police should close these pot holes down.

Extralight

I don't work for a council or local authority, but I do deal with negligence claims on a daily basis, so I may be able to contibute to this. The tort of negligence requires 3 things to be evidenced: 1. That there is a duty of care; 2. that this duty has been breached, and 3. that loss, suffering or harm arose as a result. There's also a reversal of the burden of proof that requires the duty holder to demonstrate that they were not at fault - in simple terms, guilty unless they can prove otherwise, as opposed to innocent until proven guilty, which is the case for other aspects of criminal law.

The duty holder is required to fulfill his/her duty 'so far as is reasonably practicable'. It's dull stuff, but there are two elements to this. Practicability means is there the technology or know how to make and maintain safe conditions, which in the case of potholes there is. Reasonability relates to the relationship between the cost of the preventative or remedial action (in terms of time, labour and other costs) and the benefits of doing this. This is why councils have planned preventative maintenance and inspection programmes, so that they can demonstrate to the courts 'due diligence' and reasonableness. If they've failed to adhere to their own procedures, then a claim is likely to succeed. Of course, their legal departments will try to call your bluff to disuade you from making a claim with talk of their inspections etc, but you can still request evidence relating to their programmes of inspection and maintenance, and their policies.

Ultimately, only a court can decide if due diligence has been observed and that all that is reasonablypracticable has in fact been done.

On a personal note, I'd suggest thinking about personal reasonability. If you've been seriously injured and your quality of life has been adversely affected in the long term, then it may well be reasonable and just to seek compensation. If, however, you've written off a bit of kit but bnot been bqadly hurt, is this something that you can live with? Life goes on, as they say, and perhaps damage, as with wear and tear, is part of the reality of being a bike rider. If you take advantage of the 'no win, no fee' system when you don't have to because of genuine suffering and hardship, you are, as others have commented, contributing to increasing insurance costs for councils and local authorities, which ultimately means increasing taxes for us all.

Hope this helps rather than offends!