Greipel vs Cavendish

Speed_King

I think i may open a hornets nest here but never mind, nothing like a healthy debate lol

In my opinion Mark cavendish cannot be beaten on a scott or any other bike (which if he does indeed go to the olympics wll be provern) but with this "tour down under" in procession everyone is on about Greipel?? No doubt he has sprint power but in a head to head not a chance!!

What do you all think and why ?

Here's to a healthy debate !

teagar

There's no debate.

Speed_King

it warrents opinions so therefore it can be debated on it is only a healthy one anyone

redddraggon

Lance Armstrong

markwalker

I have watched sprinters fortunes wax and wain for years now. I dont think its something you can remain so dominant in for a long time (+3 seasons). I know people will now fire off loads of examples but the peak all conquering performance point doesnt last forever.

Each sprinter has ther own strengths and weeknesses Cav has been all conquering for a couple of years but will it last? Physical characsteritics change as do teams. Cav has it all to do again this year and im not sure Greipel would always be beaten in an all other things equal sprint. (90% of the time though )

I doubt there will be any opportunities for a head to head to find out for sure though

dulldave

redddraggon wrote:

Lance Armstrong

Yeah, who's this Greipel guy? Armstrong's going to win it judging by the coverage.

markwalker

hey whats that theory that says the discussion is dead once someone mentions the Nazis?

Its the same with Armstrong. Sooner or later hell be brought into an otherwise valid discusssion and it will end / descend into farce.

Next someone will comment on Greipels physique or Cavs recovery and weight loss combined with apparently improved power and itll be a drugs debate.

Oh sorry

Homer J

If you look at them both physically, Cav looks like a natural sprinter where Greipel looks like he had to work hard at it. So i'd say Cav has the edge if he trains harder, he could be even faster this year?? It would be interesting seeing them head to head but as they are in the same team..

(Let's not forget Milan - San R, could Greipel do that?)

Tusher

They'll be sprinting for different teams at the Worlds.

Can't wait. Although whoever wins will no doubt attribute their success to the strength of their wonderful, hard working, cuddly lead out team.

Stone Glider

If you read "Boy Racer" (author M C ?) there is chapter & verse about the merits of both. You wil be astonished to learn that M C is quicker.

It may seem saccharine but it is true that the quality of the lead-out makes the sprinter, unless he is a scrapper like Robbie McEwen.

pomtarr

markwalker wrote:

hey whats that theory that says the discussion is dead once someone mentions the Nazis?

That's Godwin's law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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dulldave

markwalker wrote:

hey whats that theory that says the discussion is dead once someone mentions the Nazis?

Its the same with Armstrong. Sooner or later hell be brought into an otherwise valid discusssion and it will end / descend into farce.

Next someone will comment on Greipels physique or Cavs recovery and weight loss combined with apparently improved power and itll be a drugs debate.

Oh sorry

Yeah it's godwin's law and it's based on the idea that someone will try to find an extreme comparison in order to win an argument.

Whereas I was talking about how much chat there's been about Armstrong in the commentary of this event despite him not having a hope of winning it. Totally different from Godwin's law I think you'll find.

Not the subject of the thread, just a comment about the event itself.

The Prodigy

Greipel's physique is quite interesting, he seems to be getting bigger and bigger. I think he needs a tap on the shoulder from someone cause he is surely pushing the boundary of being too big.

I see Cav fancies a go at Flanders this year, interesting that he has clocked up MSR and then moving on to another target. Does Greipel have the same sort of ambitions or is he saying he wants as many sprint stage wins as possible at the expense of everything else. With that physique you would say he possibly is.

warrior4life

For me Greipel looks more of a sprinter compared to cav, its the TDU though and winning here isnt like winning at the TDF where everyone is at their very best.

I think what is interesting is how in a lot of sports these days it not the ones who look best that are winning.

Look at adlington and bolt, along with cav... Non of these are built with the typical proportions of a champion..

Ben6899

Stone Glider wrote:

If you read "Boy Racer" (author M C ?) there is chapter & verse about the merits of both. You wil be astonished to learn that M C is quicker.

Yes it's an autobiography.

In the same chapter he tells of the stage (I forget the details) where he was tasked with leading out Greipel. So the train does its work, pulls over and leaves them both to do the business. Cav opens it up to pull André through, but the big fella can't keep up and Cav's wondering where the fuck he is! Cav ends up winning and Greipel goes nuts on the team bus.

All Cav's side of the story of course.

cal_stewart

who would win in a fight?

I'm going with cav by fishhook

ozzzyosborn206

cav has the change of pace, the kick you may say that wins him sprints whereas griepel has power power and a bit more power, so i think the only time cav may loose is if it was leadout at full gas so it is not possible for him to up the speed anymore.......but that means finding someone who can lead out a sprint that fast and be happy not to win have fun finding that person

stagehopper

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

cav has the change of pace, the kick you may say that wins him sprints whereas griepel has power power and a bit more power, so i think the only time cav may loose is if it was leadout at full gas so it is not possible for him to up the speed anymore.......but that means finding someone who can lead out a sprint that fast and be happy not to win have fun finding that person

Renshaw .... damn, he's on the same team.

andyp

Cal_Stewart wrote:

who would win in a fight?

I'm going with cav by fishhook

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?la ... re+Greipel

Easy.

oldwelshman

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

cav has the change of pace, the kick you may say that wins him sprints whereas griepel has power power and a bit more power, so i think the only time cav may loose is if it was leadout at full gas so it is not possible for him to up the speed anymore.......but that means finding someone who can lead out a sprint that fast and be happy not to win have fun finding that person

How do you work that out?
CAvs has one from flat out lead out train with the strongest riders they have including Griepel.
IMO Renshaw is as good a sprinter as Griepel.
Cav can win from short bursts or long fast leadouts as he proved last year.
I have seen Griepel loose his position on his train more than once.
He did not look brilliant today and I don't think the standards of sprinters there is as high as it will be in TDF for sure.

Kléber

Greipel is an excellent rider but just because he's dispatching the likes of Robbie "Senior" McEwen and Graeme Brown doesn't mean so much, we need to see him against Boonen, Farrar, Bennati and Ciolek.

Last year alone he won close to 20 races but look closely and he's not winning the top races. He's winning stages in the Tour of Austria, in the Ster Elektrotoer and the Tour of Poland. Yes, he made in the Vuelta but my point is that a typical win is in a secondary sort of race.

Cav on the other hand is winning the biggest and the best and with some ease. I think Cavendish is a great rider but one massive advantage seems to be his position on the bike, he can put out few watts than many other riders but is able to ride faster thanks to his low position.

pedro118118

People are suggesting here that Cav is more versatile because he's won MSR. Isn't this a race that the acclaimed climber/rouleur Cippolini won FFS??!!!

afx237vi

pedro118118 wrote:

People are suggesting here that Cav is more versatile because he's won MSR. Isn't this a race that the acclaimed climber/rouleur Cippolini won FFS??!!!

A small difference being it took Cipollini 13 attempts to win, but Cavendish nailed it his first attempt.

Kléber

pedro118118 wrote:

People are suggesting here that Cav is more versatile because he's won MSR. Isn't this a race that the acclaimed climber/rouleur Cippolini won FFS??!!!

Cipo was actually an excellent rouleur, his background includes a stint as an anchor in the Italian team time trial squad. This discipline has been dropped at the Worlds and Olympics but in Cipo's time it was prestigous and he was part of the Italian set up, able to ride for 100km doing through and off.

Certainly Cav is more versatile than Greipel, note that Cav has already won prologue TTs and he took an uphill finish in Switzerland last year as well. Not sure Greipel's capable of this.

altyteacher

The only chance that both Cav and Greipel will be on the Champs Elysee at the same time at the end of July is if Greipel is in the stands or watching on TV in the team bus.

altyteacher

The only chance of seeing Cav and Greipel together on the Champs Elysee at the same time at the end of July is if Greipel is cheering Cav on from the stands or slapping him on the back alongside the team bus. Can't blame Columbia for polishing up more sprinters though - Dave Brailsford and his magic wallet wont stay away for too long.

Tusher

And even if he's not lured away by the inner chimp waving wads of cash in his face, Columbia need to be more than a one trick pony. Even if that pony is a pedigree thoroughbred, a bad crash or a bout of illness in June could derail HTC.

Sorry, I keep saying this- I sound like a broken record.

TheHelpfulDevil

Broken record or not Tusher is right, however i am looking forward to see how Tony Martin progresses this year - potenial week look stage winner.

On the Greipel v Cav debate - Cav all the way, M-S this year is proof enough he wants it all. problem is that he could do a boonen and waste his talent in future years same at Bos on the track. I am not saying he will take coke but loose the hunger.

Pross

Kléber wrote:

Greipel is an excellent rider but just because he's dispatching the likes of Robbie "Senior" McEwen and Graeme Brown doesn't mean so much, we need to see him against Boonen, Farrar, Bennati and Ciolek.

Last year alone he won close to 20 races but look closely and he's not winning the top races. He's winning stages in the Tour of Austria, in the Ster Elektrotoer and the Tour of Poland. Yes, he made in the Vuelta but my point is that a typical win is in a secondary sort of race.

Cav on the other hand is winning the biggest and the best and with some ease. I think Cavendish is a great rider but one massive advantage seems to be his position on the bike, he can put out few watts than many other riders but is able to ride faster thanks to his low position.

But is that down to the fact that Cav is the team sprinter in those bigger races?

Personally I don't think there's any contest. OK Cav may struggle on proper uphill finishes against the likes of Hushovd but Greipel seems only comfortable in sprints at the end of the easiest of stages. The last 2 days of the TdU when he was put under pressure left him outside the first 3 in the sprints. OK you could argue that he didn't need to contest them as the break had taken the time bonuses on Stage 5 and he had the race won on Stage 6 but most top sprinters would still be going for the win on that final stage.

Be interesting to see how Cav does in Flanders if he does it. I know it suits sprinters but more those in the mould of Mueseeuw rather than an Abdu type rider. If he does win it it would put him on a different level IMO. I can't imagine Greipel ever winning it!

calvjones

+1

I would pay good money to see Andre tackle the Muur!

timoid.

TheHelpfulDevil wrote:

Broken record or not Tusher is right, however i am looking forward to see how Tony Martin progresses this year - potenial week look stage winner.

On the Greipel v Cav debate - Cav all the way, M-S this year is proof enough he wants it all. problem is that he could do a boonen and waste his talent in future years same at Bos on the track. I am not saying he will take coke but loose the hunger.

This is the winner of the last two Paris Roubaix you speak of? Where did it all go wrong?