Manufacturers paint durability - a rant!!!!

Northwind

What's been bugging me just now is COMPLETELY UNFINISHED ALUMINIUM AAARGH. I've ridden my mtb on the road for 2 weeks, and the number of parts that are now white and furry is just ridiculous. Bolt in the crudcatcher, bobbins in the hope discs, bits of the wheels. I offer all bike companies 3 choices- anodise, paint, or die.

andyrm

If it gets that bad that you end up needing a respray, I'd really recommend powder coating - I got my Cinder Cone workhorse bike done by a local place (look up powder coating or industrial finishers on google, it doesn't need to be a bike specialist) for £30+VAT and to say it is bombproof is an understatement.

rolf_f

matthew h wrote:

yep got an Orange P7 with chips all over it

That's odd - what colour is it? I have a stealth black 09 model and the finish is tough. About the only scratches in over 1500 miles are eg where grit gets under the chain stay protector and rubs against the paint. I don't think there are any chips as such though the matt finish has become polished in places - but that's just patina . Certainly I don't need to worry about chipping the paint whilst cleaning it! Mind you, I always covered the cable rub points with insulation tape.

The paint appears to be quite thin and well baked on. I suspect more thickly applied paint is more likely to chip.

The Big Cheese

andyrm wrote:

If it gets that bad that you end up needing a respray, I'd really recommend powder coating - I got my Cinder Cone workhorse bike done by a local place (look up powder coating or industrial finishers on google, it doesn't need to be a bike specialist) for £30+VAT and to say it is bombproof is an understatement.

I could never have it resprayed as it's such a unique and perfect paintjob (not the durability) it would truly break my heart to do so, Ive helitaped the majority of it, just need tp touch up the dropout area, and be more careful

colintrav

The Big Cheese wrote:

I am a bit pissed off at the fragility of paint jobs on top-end bikes and components.

I (obviously) expect to lose paint, in and around the rear dropouts on a frame, due to skewers etc. I have loads of small areas that have lost paint around (and in the dropouts) I mean it's THAT fragile. I know it's not the end of the world, and to be honest you can't really see it when wheels are on (but I know it's there) - it's soooo fragile its unreal.

Also, took delivery of brand new, boxed Elixir carbons today and on the front right hand lever there is a chip (and they were packaged within an inch of their lives) so what gives here, why spend top dollar on something only to have such fragility?

The manufacturers really need to sort this out, can't be that hard to rectify surely????

I hase just ordered a touch up kit for the lever and the frame but that's not the point, battle scasrs are one thing but just by removing the wheel is someting else :twisted:

Anyone else had similar problems?

It's all about cutting corners for the sake of maximum profit ..

trekhead

Rockhopper wrote:

I think bike manufacturers are having to use environmentally friendly water based paints instead of the old celulose based ones which are far tougher.

Although this is true, it is only the basecoat (colour) that is water based. The topcoat (clear lacquer) is the same old two pack solvent material thats always been used.

Plus if they are made and painted in the states, the EPA laws don`t apply, so they can use solvent materials through out. It`s only us suckers in the EU that have to adhere to these ridiculous laws.

rolf_f

trekhead wrote:

It`s only us suckers in the EU that have to adhere to these ridiculous laws.

They aren't ridiculous laws - you can still use certain types of solvent based paint though there are additional health and safety requirements designed to stop amateurs using them - helps to stop people dying. Two pack is the obvious example which is hard wearing. I'm pretty sure that water based paints can be very durable as well since they are used in the car industry now (though I think Mercedes catastrophic recent corrosion problems have been blamed on duff water based paint).

In the long run, minimisation of solvent based paint useage (which I think still has its place) can only be a good thing - better to improve water based paint technology than to stick to the old nasty stuff.

trekhead

Mercedes problems came when they changed metal suppliers. They have now reverted back to the original, more expensive supplier.

The laws are ridiculous. Jan 2007 the widespread use of solvent material was supposed to cease throught the car / refinish industry.

If you run a business which paints anything other than motor cars, then you can carry on using solvent.

If you are or claim to be painting commercial vehicles, bikes, boats or whatever, you are not required to use waterbase.

Waterbase takes MUCH longer to dry between coats, cost alot more to buy to begin with, booths have to be run warmer (much more fuel used) or booths have to be fitted with air blowers which means compressors are running longer. It is not efficient.

It is all finished with conventional 2K solvent based lacquer.

This stupid situation applies to EU only.

Kiblams

I have Surly Instigator forks, which have been bashed around for a year. I believe that they are powder coated and even though they are covered in scratches, there is no metal showing at all!

Now I have had a 08 Pinnacle frame and also an old Raleigh frame and while they don't get much of a beating out on the trail/commute they do when I am working on them. I had loads of chips where the paint was missing on the Pinnacle after just a few months, but as with the Surly forks, the Raleigh frame just seems to scratch but only losing the top layer of paint.

Could it be that on modern frames they are simply using less paint?

joshtp

Kiblams wrote:

I have Surly Instigator forks, which have been bashed around for a year. I believe that they are powder coated and even though they are covered in scratches, there is no metal showing at all!

Now I have had a 08 Pinnacle frame and also an old Raleigh frame and while they don't get much of a beating out on the trail/commute they do when I am working on them. I had loads of chips where the paint was missing on the Pinnacle after just a few months, but as with the Surly forks, the Raleigh frame just seems to scratch but only losing the top layer of paint.

Could it be that on modern frames they are simply using less paint?

interesting point....
however it needs to be understood that powder coating isnt the same as paint, they staticly charge the frame and then spray it with tiny plastic balls which stick to the frame, and thenwhen the frame is baked, they allk melt, so it effectively coats the frame in a very hard plastic layer...

Kiblams

joshtp/mbukman wrote:

however it needs to be understood that powder coating isnt the same as paint, they staticly charge the frame and then spray it with tiny plastic balls which stick to the frame, and thenwhen the frame is baked, they allk melt, so it effectively coats the frame in a very hard plastic layer...

I appreciate that it is not possible to put decals on a frame using powdercoating, but surely a powder-undercoat as standard on most frames/components will help protect everything much more and lengthen the asthetics?

joshtp

the problem is, i think its pretty expensive, and it isnt great for frames, cuz it tends to cover everything, and its extra expense then to mashine everyting back like bb's and headsets, its also heavier than paint (i believe)

Kiblams

joshtp/mbukman wrote:

the problem is, i think its pretty expensive, and it isnt great for frames, cuz it tends to cover everything, and its extra expense then to mashine everyting back like bb's and headsets, its also heavier than paint (i believe)

Aye; as with everything in life, there are always trade-offs. It seems the default rules also apply to paint: cheap+light or cheap+durable or expensive+light+durable

MacAndCheese

My Marin's are both fairly shocking to be honest, a few good stone chips on both, despite relatively low milage (sorry big cheese - that includes what was an immaculate IFT frame). Compared to my old Kona which only really suffered on the chain stay and a bit of cable rub. I just try not to think about it any more, but every time I notice a new one I get a little annoyed.

delcol

wow, i'm shocked..

i thought it was just me my santa cruz is the same you only need to look at and the paint falls off,, i had no idea it was such a common thing on high end bikes..

got to agree with the ano my pace is still in imacculate condition apart from the decals they rubbed off way to easy...

i wonder how an aftermarket respray would fare up...

Sloper

Northwind wrote:

What's been bugging me just now is COMPLETELY UNFINISHED ALUMINIUM AAARGH. I've ridden my mtb on the road for 2 weeks, and the number of parts that are now white and furry is just ridiculous. Bolt in the crudcatcher, bobbins in the hope discs, bits of the wheels. I offer all bike companies 3 choices- anodise, paint, or die.

You could try coating it with ACF 50 spray http://www.acf-50.co.uk/

Developed for the aviation industry and well loved by year-round bikers (motorcyclists, that is)

Dobbs

Intense must be the worst, I had my 5.5 powdercoated within 10 odd months of buying it (brand new). Shocking customer service as well. Couldn't buy another.

Northwind

Sloper wrote:

You could try coating it with ACF 50 spray http://www.acf-50.co.uk/

Developed for the aviation industry and well loved by year-round bikers (motorcyclists, that is)

Yup, good stuff (I own an SV650, so I've invested heavily in ACF50 and other corrosion defeaters )

Dick Scruttock

delcol wrote:

wow, i'm shocked..

i thought it was just me my santa cruz is the same you only need to look at and the paint falls off,, i had no idea it was such a common thing on high end bikes..

got to agree with the ano my pace is still in imacculate condition apart from the decals they rubbed off way to easy...

i wonder how an aftermarket respray would fare up...

Santa Cruz have changed there painting process now. They have responded to riders and iirc are now using a more durable finish. It might even have taken it all inhouse now in the place in the USA so frames are made in Taiwan/China and shipped to the USA for powder.

rolf_f

trekhead wrote:

Mercedes problems came when they changed metal suppliers. They have now reverted back to the original, more expensive supplier.

The laws are ridiculous. Jan 2007 the widespread use of solvent material was supposed to cease throught the car / refinish industry.

If you run a business which paints anything other than motor cars, then you can carry on using solvent.

If you are or claim to be painting commercial vehicles, bikes, boats or whatever, you are not required to use waterbase.

Waterbase takes MUCH longer to dry between coats, cost alot more to buy to begin with, booths have to be run warmer (much more fuel used) or booths have to be fitted with air blowers which means compressors are running longer. It is not efficient.

It is all finished with conventional 2K solvent based lacquer.

This stupid situation applies to EU only.

Good post I think! I bow to clearly superior knowledge! I do get irritated by people slagging H&S off (I don't work in H&S by the way!) - for the most part, H&S has been overwhelmingly positive. Unfortunately, mostly what we see of it are signs telling us to hold the railings on staircases etc.

In this case, I suspect that the implementation is at fault.

trekhead

Rolf
I agree with the general motives behind H&S, until it starts getting silly.
There are very strict regulations in place to provide protection when handling/using paints etc (C.O.S.H.)

As far as I know the whole waterbased thing is more to do with emissions and has been promoted as being `greener`.

Just Europe then?

delcol

rick..

my sant cruz is one of the new ones made in tiwan assembled in usa...

compaired to my rockymountain the paint of the sant cruz is crap.

scale20

delcol wrote:

wow, i'm shocked..

i thought it was just me my santa cruz is the same you only need to look at and the paint falls off,, i had no idea it was such a common thing on high end bikes..

got to agree with the ano my pace is still in imacculate condition apart from the decals they rubbed off way to easy...

i wonder how an aftermarket respray would fare up...

The decals came off my pace after the first wash. I got replacement MX style stickers from Pace. How old is your frame?

delcol

mine is a 08 pace rc305 got it in july 08...

scale20

Mines an 09 506 anodised frame. I can only describe the old decals as 'Airfix' transfers. They came off with the first wash with a garden hose. After a long hard battle with Pace the admitted they were not the best and had replacement MX style decals made.

Could be worth contacting them to get some. I'm not sure wether they have these new decals on the '10 anodised frames.

delcol

sounds like mine but it was were my knee pad had been rubbing the top tube were mine rubbed off it's just the rc305 one thats faded on mine..