Joe Papp on systematic doping
An interesting if disturbing interview where Joe Papp talks candidly about systematic doping in Whistle.
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fulls ... est%20News
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fulls ... est%20News
0
Comments
-
jeez - 100 substances !0
-
It can't be true. Papp is American and only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope, or so said Pat McQuaid!
His comments about the lack of action from the UCI are interesting though. And he adds to the evidence indicating that Ann Gripper has become just another corporate whore.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:It can't be true. Papp is American and only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope, or so said Pat McQuaid!
Can you provide a reference? I thought the mafia comment came from the head of the Swiss Fed, Schlaefli?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
No problem...
McQuaid starts cultural polemic
The controversy between the International Cycling Union and some of the European federations has continued over the week-end. On Friday, UCI president Pat McQuaid said the following at a New Year's reception, which was broadcast by Dutch TV program NOS: "There is a clash going on at the moment between two cultures. The Anglo-Saxon culture and what I might call the 'Mafia' Western European culture [meaning Belgium, France, Italy and Spain - ed.]. The Western European culture has to some extent, I won't say condoned doping, but because of their culture in life, the way they deal with everything else in life, they accept certain practices.
"The Anglo-Saxon cultures, which would be the Netherlands, Germany, England, Denmark, are the complete opposite. They have a completely different approach to the doping problem. I feel that it's very important that at the end of the day, the Anglo-Saxon approach wins out. If it doesn't, then the sport is doomed."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /jan08news
UCI President Pat McQuaid has levelled a scathing criticism against 'mafia' Western European nations blaming them for cycling's doping ills.
"There is a clash going on at the moment between two cultures, the Anglo-Saxon and what I might call the mafia Western European culture," the Irishman told Dutch television on Friday.
"The Western European Culture is a culture that has to some extent - I won't say condones doping and cheating practices - but because of their culture in life, because of the way they deal with everything else in life they accept certain practices."
http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/pro-to ... 7301.shtml
“There is a clash going on at the moment between two cultures, the Anglo-Saxon and what I might call the mafia Western European culture…The Western European Culture is a culture that has to some extent - I won’t say condones doping and cheating practices - but because of their culture in life, because of the way they deal with everything else in life they accept certain practices…”
“The Anglo-Saxon [approach], which would be here [the Netherlands], it would be Germany, the United Kingdom, Denmark - is the complete opposite…it is very important that at the end of the day the Anglo-Saxon approach wins out - because if it doesn’t, then the sport is doomed.”
http://cyclocosm.com/2007/01/pound-mcqu ... de-rumors/
Pat McQuaid is an idiot and should resign
“There exists today a schism between two cultures. The Anglo-Saxon culture and what I call the mafia-like culture of western Europe (sports.fr assumes this refers to Belgium, France, Italy, and Spain). This western European culture, in a certain way, I wouldn’t say that it condones doping, but it accepts certain practices. The Anglo-Saxon culture, which includes Holland, Germany, England and Denmark, functions in a totally different manner. I believe that it is important that the Anglo-Saxon vision must carry the day. If this is not the case, cycling is dead, ” said McQuaid.
The quote references the Bush line of a battle of two cultures. Only Bush references the crusades to piss off Muslims of all types. Now McQuaid has to go back farther in history and bring up the Anglo-Saxon vs swarthy Continental European differences. Is this what we have come down to?
Hey McQuaid wake up and rub your eyes. Why don’t you look at just who exactly is being charged with doping? Floyd Landis? Tyler Hamilton? David Millar? those don’t sound like swarthy Southern Europeans to me. What about the most famous doping death of all time? Tom Simpson?
...If this is the best that we can have for leadership in cycling then the sport is truly doomed.
http://velochimp.com/2007/01/09/pat-mcq ... ld-resign/0 -
He doesn't mentioned the US though, does he?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
-
Maybe, but the term 'Anglo-Saxon' is commonly taken to refer to both the US and UK, as in the 'Anglo-Saxon financial model' and in reference to the 'Anglo-Saxon' origins the the common English language.iainf72 wrote:He doesn't mentioned the US though, does he?
Also, if the real problem with doping lies with 'Mafia European nations', surely the USA is excluded by default '?0 -
You could argue that. However, the cycling culture in those "mafia" countries runs deep and with it the doping. Yes, there are dopers from the US but do they have enough history to make you think it's the norm? Most of the American positives in pro cycling come from athletes with strong links to the Spanish and Italian doping cultures / doctors.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
-
I would say that doing anything that is necessary in order to win is the norm in the USA...iainf72 wrote:Yes, there are dopers from the US but do they have enough history to make you think it's the norm?
It could also be argued that the use of performance enhancing drugs is more deeply rooted in the USA than any other country in the world, with, for example, the taking of steroids by even 'ordinary Joes' being 'as American as apple pie'.
http://www.biggerstrongerfastermovie.com/
Aren't WWF wrestling and Baseball 'American' sports as well, and we all know about how much doping is an integral part of such 'sports'. And how about the blood doping of the 1984 US Olympic cycling team?
And a lack of positives is evidence of a lack of doping? In any case, at the end of the day it is the riders who take the dope...iainf72 wrote:Most of the American positives in pro cycling come from athletes with strong links to the Spanish and Italian doping cultures / doctors.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:It can't be true. Papp is American and only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope, or so said Pat McQuaid!
His comments about the lack of action from the UCI are interesting though. And he adds to the evidence indicating that Ann Gripper has become just another corporate whore.
Didn't manage to find anything in your quotes where McQuaid said that only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope. He just said that the two different cultures have different reactions to the doping problem.
Twisting other people's words as usual, Howard...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
BikingBernie wrote:And how about the blood doping of the 1984 US Olympic cycling team?
Not against the rules at the time.BikingBernie wrote:And a lack of positives is evidence of a lack of doping? In any case, at the end of the day it is the riders who take the dope...
You mean like in France?
That's not what I meant. USPS was run along the lines of a Spanish cycling team and all that entails.
Are Americans to blame? No. Are they without fault? No. Are they any worse than any other nation? No, probably not. They've not experimented on athletes to the degree the former communist countries did.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
I don't see the teams behaving according to any national stereotype. As said, US Postal was run by a Belgian in Bruyneel who modeled the set-up after his time at ONCE, but used Italian doctors.
There is something to be said between countries on the reaction to doping. Latin countries tend to shrug their shoulders and sweep things under the carpet but northern Europeans get uppity, witness the vilification of Ullrich in Germany and the withdrawal of sponsors across Germany whilst few seem to care in Italy or Spain.0 -
“The Anglo-Saxon [approach], which would be here [the Netherlands], it would be Germany, the United Kingdom, Denmark - is the complete opposite…it is very important that at the end of the day the Anglo-Saxon approach wins out'
Nice of him to include the only nation with credible and apparently effective national federation anti-doping policy for the last decade (well, the only one with a serious number of pro road riders).___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
DaveyL wrote:BikingBernie wrote:It can't be true. Papp is American and only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope, or so said Pat McQuaid!
His comments about the lack of action from the UCI are interesting though. And he adds to the evidence indicating that Ann Gripper has become just another corporate whore.
Didn't manage to find anything in your quotes where McQuaid said that only riders from 'mafia European nations' dope. He just said that the two different cultures have different reactions to the doping problem.
Twisting other people's words as usual, Howard...
Oh come on! What BB posted was just an exaggeration of one of many of McQuaid's stupid remarks. But you choose to pull him up on it instead of nod and agree that McQuaid is an idiot.Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
If McQuaid is such an idiot, one should be able to take him down without taking quotes out of context or twisting his words. Especially for such a skilled debater as "BB"...
I would say that in this instance, McQuaid may have a point - that different cultures *react* differently when they find doping going on.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
The difference between, say, the UK on the one hand, and for example Spain on the other is not that British riders don't dope, it's the public and official reaction to their doping.
The British public, at least, is puritanical in its attitude towards doping. I suspect the American public too. That doesn't mean that British or American riders don't dope, but it does mean that the way back for them if caught is tougher.
When David Millar tested positive, the British media crucified him. There was no effort to understand the context in which he doped, and although his efforts against doping have come to be appreciated, that took time.
When Maribel Moreno tested positice before Beijing, I remember reading a Spanish cycling magazine, in which there were articles if nto defending her, at least minimising her offence, and criticising a govt minister who called on her to name names.
Things may be changing. There were letters from readers criticising her. And the French public now seem quite firmly anti-doping. But the Spanish cycling establishment at least gives the impression of being less than fully committed to the fight against doping.0 -
The big joke in all this, is that when it come to being 'less than fully committed to the fight against doping', it is often the UCI that leads the way 'For the good of the sport' of course. :roll:0
