madone 6.9 integral BB wear ?
forward_loop
Posts: 314
My Friends is on his second trek 6.9 hes put 5,000 miles on the clock in about 6 months, and has found the crank had a little play in them. Took out the crank and have found that there is play between one of the integral frame cups and the bearing ? -(the other side fits nice and tight). I presume the frame has had it ? OK - you could possibly fit a shim but I presume this is a warranty return. Any one else had this happen to their trek BB's and if so what was Treks response ?
Many thanks
Many thanks
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I have!
I'm currently on my fourth Madone! I've had three warranty replacements since buying one as soon as the current model became available here in the UK in approx. Aug 2007. My bikes are scrupulously serviced, maintained and cleaned by me and are never abused or neglected but even so…
Bike No.1 warranty replaced by Trek (frame and forks) when NDS BB socket wore oversize.
Bike 2 warranty replaced by Trek (frame and forks) after I noticed a crack (probably superficial) in the gel coat at the base of the seat mast. Trek said that it wasn't structural but, because I'd purchased the original Madone just less than a year prior to this, they replaced it under the one year cosmetic guarantee.
Bike 3 replaced under warranty (f&f) when NDS BB socket wore oversize ie same failure mode as bike 1.
My fourth Madone is a lovely 2010 model in catalyst green!
At the moment I seem to be averaging around 8 months per Madone!
Trek seem to have addressed this BB weakness by progressively reducing the BB “net –molded” socket diameter – an inelegant approach to say the least! The BB bearings would just about fall out of the new, unridden frame of my first Madone under gravity. On the new fourth frame, the bearings were an appreciable interference fit in the sockets.
Trek are completely aware of all this. Their 2010 Madone manual even contains info. on how to check for wear in this area.
I love my Madone; just wish it didn’t have this Achilles’ heel. Still, I get the “thrill” of a “new” bike really often now, plus I get a chance to choose a new frame colour too…. grrr0 -
thanks torrens - coincidently the first return was a crack (possibly superficial) at the base of the seatpost.
Trek seem to be very good honouring warranties so i dont think it will be a problem. the xxx lite rims have also cracked around the spokes (Spokes done up too tightly?) So he may end up getting the thrill of a new bike more often than is fair at this rate aswell
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I'm on my second Madone (a 6.9) and tend to get play in the cranks frequently. Usually a quick tighten of the crankset solves the problem.
The bearings do tend to wear out (and I have high-end ceramic ones in there), but the races get corroded. Going to make an effort to take them out and clean them regularly to extend the life.
Never had a problem with the cups being too big or wearing out though.0 -
hmm, my first Madone was supplied with a Bonty RXL chainset which utilized the Giga X pipe BB system. With this system, in the incarnation of it I had at least, there was no means whatsoever of adjusting the axial preload on the BB bearings.
I believe that later versions were supplied with various wavy/shimming washers, but mine certainly wasn't. Due to this, and also because the chainrings had clearly visible-to-the-naked-eye run out from new (within design tolerance according to Trek!) I removed the offending chainset. I have subsequently exclusively availed myself of the Shimano Hollowtech 2 system (my new green Madone has the DA7900 fitted). Htech 2 has a simple and effective means of adjusting bearing axial preload i.e. it's nicely engineered!
BB bearing sealing on the Madone isn't very effective but I could live with just having to replace the bearings relatively frequently but alas, for me at least, I have a trickier problem to contend with, namely wear in the frame bearing sockets themselves. Once this wear takes place then the frame is toast, unless you want to go down the loctite/shim route, which I don't.
When I first read of Trek's new "BB90" standard in early 2007 alarm bells rang for me…
Inserting a cartridge bearing (which has a hard steel outer race of course) into a moulded (not machined) non-replaceable carbon fibre (relatively soft) socket with a very relaxed interference fit was, I thought, asking for trouble.
However, I read all the Trek blurb about their exhausting and exacting development testing programme etc and decided to take the plunge; I’m really glad their warranty scheme is a good ‘un!
I think this BB system doesn’t hold up well to extended use. Everything’s fine for the first few thousand miles but microscopic fretting eventually starts to occur between the NDS bearing outer race and its cf frame socket. If you’ve got a Htech 2 chainset you may be able to initially “dial out” this wear by adjusting/increasing bearing axial preload. Eventually, whatever BB system you’re using, you’ll end up with play at the cranks which no amount of new bearings and no amount of tightening anything will remove. Your frame is now toast. This is my “working hypothesis” at least. My experience to date fits with it…0 -
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You have a point!
Trek, of course, give advantages ad infinitum (ad nauseam?) for their BB90 system.
My experience of this system is that, to date at least, it necessitates entire frame replacement after a few months of (admittedly) high mileage use. I'm sure a creative advertising type wallah could even put a positive marketing spin on this somehow ....
How about "the more you pedal, the lighter it gets!" for starters...0 -
As long as they continue to replace your frame for free - what's the problem.
I'd be happy to have my frame replaced by them. Next time I check the bearings I will see if there are any problems on mine!
Press-fit bearings on frames are being used on several bikes now by different manufacturers. I just don;t know if they are pushed right into the CF like on the Madone.0 -
redddraggon wrote:I can't see the advantage over an English BB TBH!!!
If you rode the Madone you would know! I don't care what the anti Trek brigade say, it's an awesome bike to ride!
I will however have to give my creaking crank/BB noise a closer inspection!0 -
I heard about this from Giant. Giant are building all treks apart from the top level madones (at least they were when I was told this last easter). This is because Giant fell out with Trek about the way Trek wanted to build the BB area, so Trek took production of that elsewhere. From this thread it looks like Giant might have been correct in thinking it wasn't the best design!Racing for Fluid Fin Race Team in 2012 - www.fluidfin.co.uk0
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As long as they continue to replace your frame for free - what's the problem.
I'd be happy to have my frame replaced by them
So, you're not bothered about not having a Madone for weeks on end while Trek examines your last one?
You're not bothered about multiple trips to the supplying dealer?
You're not bothered about the "exciting" wait for Trek's replace/it's not our fault go away decision? Trek has become increasingly more reluctant to replace my bikes, understandable I suppose!
You're not bothered about repeatedly cutting steerers/ building up a Madone from scratch? To be fair the supplying dealer always offered to build up the replacement bikes, it's just that I prefer to do my own builds, but I always let them insert the BB bearings for me of course!...The supplying dealer also went the extra mile by providing me with a courtesy Madone for the 2 months it took for Trek to send me my current 2010 Madone.
As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m sticking with my Madone because when it works it’s delightful! All I’m doing here is attempting to give an accurate portrayal of the problems I personally have experienced with my “new shape” Madones.0 -
incog24 wrote:I heard about this from Giant. Giant are building all treks apart from the top level madones (at least they were when I was told this last easter). This is because Giant fell out with Trek about the way Trek wanted to build the BB area, so Trek took production of that elsewhere. From this thread it looks like Giant might have been correct in thinking it wasn't the best design!
All of the BB90 bikes and previous OCLV Madones have always been made at the Wisconsin factory.0 -
torrens wrote:I have!
I'm currently on my fourth Madone! I've had three warranty replacements since buying one as soon as the current model became available here in the UK in approx. Aug 2007. My bikes are scrupulously serviced, maintained and cleaned by me and are never abused or neglected but even so…
Bike No.1 warranty replaced by Trek (frame and forks) when NDS BB socket wore oversize.
Bike 2 warranty replaced by Trek (frame and forks) after I noticed a crack (probably superficial) in the gel coat at the base of the seat mast. Trek said that it wasn't structural but, because I'd purchased the original Madone just less than a year prior to this, they replaced it under the one year cosmetic guarantee.
Bike 3 replaced under warranty (f&f) when NDS BB socket wore oversize ie same failure mode as bike 1.
My fourth Madone is a lovely 2010 model in catalyst green!
At the moment I seem to be averaging around 8 months per Madone!
Trek seem to have addressed this BB weakness by progressively reducing the BB “net –molded” socket diameter – an inelegant approach to say the least! The BB bearings would just about fall out of the new, unridden frame of my first Madone under gravity. On the new fourth frame, the bearings were an appreciable interference fit in the sockets.
Trek are completely aware of all this. Their 2010 Madone manual even contains info. on how to check for wear in this area.
I love my Madone; just wish it didn’t have this Achilles’ heel. Still, I get the “thrill” of a “new” bike really often now, plus I get a chance to choose a new frame colour too…. grrr
Someone I know I think has had the same problems with his Madone in the same order, even had a 2010 catalyst green bike now!0 -
spanielsson wrote:All of the BB90 bikes and previous OCLV Madones have always been made at the Wisconsin factory.
Is that not what I said?Racing for Fluid Fin Race Team in 2012 - www.fluidfin.co.uk0 -
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mmacavity wrote:
These are the bearings I use in mine. And at last check - the races (outer bit on the bearings) on one side STILL managed to get corroded!! Fortunately Enduro sent me two sets so it didn't cost me to replace them. But it will next time!
That's why I'm going to examine and clean them regularly in the future.
As for my previous comment about getting the frame replaced - I didn't realize it took so long to get it done. And you are correct that I wouldn't be happy waiting months for a few frame. Even worse is that I got mine directly from Trek - so I wouldn't have a dealer to help with rebuilding or to offer me a 'loaner' while I wait.
I wouldn't mind the rebuilding bit as I build all my bikes up on my own anyway!0 -
As rightly suggested above press-fit bearing design is poor practise. If it's not threaded, then it should be an interference fit. Even then, wear will occur and hence the frame is a right-off. Chris King makes an excellent argument on the same lines about integrated headsets, and there's plenty of evidence out there to support the idea that these designs are flawed.
I understand Giant are offering press-fit bottom bracket designs now - so maybe we'll see whether the inherent weakness of the design or something more specific to a manufacturer has rendered all this lovely equipment not fit for purpose.....0 -
spanielsson wrote:redddraggon wrote:I can't see the advantage over an English BB TBH!!!
If you rode the Madone you would know! I don't care what the anti Trek brigade say, it's an awesome bike to ride!
I will however have to give my creaking crank/BB noise a closer inspection!
I'm not anti-Trek.
BB86/BB90 might produce a stiffer BB, if you are pro chasing every last millisecond it might be worth it, but the BB sleeve wear will limit the lifetime of the frame. It's the one big reason I went for the Ti bike and CK headset.0 -
No. You implied that Trek moved the manufacture elsewhere when in fact all their OCLV frames have been and are still made in their own factory in the USA. They moved the lower value ones elsewhere some years ago, as they did the 4 series carbon ones recently. I doubt if they moved them to Giant but don't know that.incog24 wrote:
Is that not what I said?spanielsson wrote:All of the BB90 bikes and previous OCLV Madones have always been made at the Wisconsin factory.0
