Snow- New drivers - not learning proper.

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Comments

  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Barrie_G wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    Engine braking is a great way to f@ck up your gearbox.

    Why?

    I assume he's on about selecting a lower gear from a high gear and letting the low speed of the engine slow the car, as opposed to the other person whom I assume meant just taking your foot of the throttle and letting the reduced revs of the engine slow you down.

    IMHO both people are right

    What I meant was, why would engine braking cause gearbox damage? Engine ECUs are programmed to advance ignition timing to generate engine braking, so why would the transmission not also be designed to take the load?
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  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    DesWeller wrote:
    Barrie_G wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    Engine braking is a great way to f@ck up your gearbox.

    Why?

    I assume he's on about selecting a lower gear from a high gear and letting the low speed of the engine slow the car, as opposed to the other person whom I assume meant just taking your foot of the throttle and letting the reduced revs of the engine slow you down.

    IMHO both people are right

    What I meant was, why would engine braking cause gearbox damage? Engine ECUs are programmed to advance ignition timing to generate engine braking, so why would the transmission not also be designed to take the load?

    If you're cruising along in 5th gear at 70MPH (as an example) and then slam it into 4th (without slowing down), then engine revs shoot up and it puts undue stress on the gearbox.

    Over time it can wreck it.

    This is my understanding from a mechanic who was on the same speed awareness course as me - who told us he makes a lot of money replacing gearboxes. By people using the engine to brake instead of the brakes.


    The instructors of the course (who were both driving instructors as well) agreed that you should be using your brakes, not your engine.

    It's a lot cheaper to replace your brake pads than your clutch or gearbox.

    But I'm no mechanic so maybe it's all b@llox.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Can get on the skid pan if you do your advanced driver course I believe. I'd love to see anyone try to pull off in 2nd on my car, I haven't been able to do it in a diesel engined car let alone a petrol. I do get into 2nd at the earliest opportunity though and don't touch the brakes coming back into the street as it is on a 12% slope with about 7% camber in the wrong direction. The biggest problem I have now is that our Frontera that has managed to get me up the lanes to the stable for the past couple of weeks has decided to convert from being front wheel drive with 4 wheel drive option to no wheel drive with a rear wheel drive option, not much fun in a 2 ton vehicle with no weight at the rear :shock:
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Pokerface wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Barrie_G wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    Engine braking is a great way to f@ck up your gearbox.

    Why?

    I assume he's on about selecting a lower gear from a high gear and letting the low speed of the engine slow the car, as opposed to the other person whom I assume meant just taking your foot of the throttle and letting the reduced revs of the engine slow you down.

    IMHO both people are right

    What I meant was, why would engine braking cause gearbox damage? Engine ECUs are programmed to advance ignition timing to generate engine braking, so why would the transmission not also be designed to take the load?

    If you're cruising along in 5th gear at 70MPH (as an example) and then slam it into 4th (without slowing down), then engine revs shoot up and it puts undue stress on the gearbox.

    Over time it can wreck it.

    This is my understanding from a mechanic who was on the same speed awareness course as me - who told us he makes a lot of money replacing gearboxes. By people using the engine to brake instead of the brakes.

    The instructors of the course (who were both driving instructors as well) agreed that you should be using your brakes, not your engine.

    It's a lot cheaper to replace your brake pads than your clutch or gearbox.

    But I'm no mechanic so maybe it's all b@llox.

    OK, I understand where you're mechanic is coming from but he's got it a little bit wrong. It's the action of changing gear that causes the damage as it requires big speed changes under load from the syncromesh if you're doing it at high speeds.

    The engine braking itself - the ECU running advanced ignition in the engine to provide a resisting load - does not itself damage the transmission.

    NB Instructors prefer their students to use their brakes as the guy following behind doesn't get any notice that you're slowing down if you don't press that pedal.
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  • JGS
    JGS Posts: 180
    DesWeller wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Barrie_G wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    Engine braking is a great way to f@ck up your gearbox.

    Why?

    I assume he's on about selecting a lower gear from a high gear and letting the low speed of the engine slow the car, as opposed to the other person whom I assume meant just taking your foot of the throttle and letting the reduced revs of the engine slow you down.

    IMHO both people are right

    What I meant was, why would engine braking cause gearbox damage? Engine ECUs are programmed to advance ignition timing to generate engine braking, so why would the transmission not also be designed to take the load?

    If you're cruising along in 5th gear at 70MPH (as an example) and then slam it into 4th (without slowing down), then engine revs shoot up and it puts undue stress on the gearbox.

    Over time it can wreck it.

    This is my understanding from a mechanic who was on the same speed awareness course as me - who told us he makes a lot of money replacing gearboxes. By people using the engine to brake instead of the brakes.

    The instructors of the course (who were both driving instructors as well) agreed that you should be using your brakes, not your engine.

    It's a lot cheaper to replace your brake pads than your clutch or gearbox.

    But I'm no mechanic so maybe it's all b@llox.

    OK, I understand where you're mechanic is coming from but he's got it a little bit wrong. It's the action of changing gear that causes the damage as it requires big speed changes under load from the syncromesh if you're doing it at high speeds.

    The engine braking itself - the ECU running advanced ignition in the engine to provide a resisting load - does not itself damage the transmission.

    NB Instructors prefer their students to use their brakes as the guy following behind doesn't get any notice that you're slowing down if you don't press that pedal.

    Obviously slamming it into a lower gear from a higher one is going to cause problems, but if you blip the throttle and match the engine speed then you won't have problems. Although that technique along with left foot braking, double de-clutching and heel and toe actions don't come as standard on a driving test unfortunately.

    As for instructors preferring students to use their brakes to slow down in case the person behind doesn't notice is just a sad side effect of the fact that a lot of people don't pay enough attention to the road these days.

    Don't even get me started on idiots with their fog lights either...
  • tlw1
    tlw1 Posts: 22,157
    Front fog lights is an easy way to wind me up :evil:

    Driving is snow "shouldn't" need training as it is so bloody obvious! But my 4 hour trip home on Tuesday (rather than an hour) showed me how wrong I am.

    For me if there is snow / ice, I will always do harsh acelerating / braking to test the grip levels & then drive like my Gran is drinking a pint in the passenger seat! If I get a chance I will always do a few handbrake turns to test how the car is at massive slip angles (admit this is 99% about fun & 1% testing grip levels)!
  • berliner
    berliner Posts: 340
    Being an urban cyclist gives one the best understanding of defensive driving. It's not so much what you are doing but anticipating what your fellow car driver is going to do.
    Having had to drive a bit recently I'm really amazed how many drivers are still up my tail end or seem happy to cruise along urban streets on compacted snow at their normal speed.
    I would suggest, if possible, parking off road. Most claims at present are for other drivers sliding into parked cars. They don't always stop - therefore a fault claim on your insurance.
  • fatandwheezing
    fatandwheezing Posts: 169
    I had to go and get my girlfriend on Thursday - trains were all screwed, so had to go to Farnborough. Had walked to work so took the work Discovery - I hate driving it normally, but it was utterly awesome in the snow.

    Someone else has booked it this week, so will be cycling in tomorrow - not looking forward to it based on how I've seen some people overtake bikes in the last week, with a foot of snow ready to fall off the roof at any moment.
  • fossyant
    fossyant Posts: 2,549
    Try driving in poor conditions, and applying make-up at the same time....result, some young girl rear ended my wife on Saturday....

    Now got all the blooming faff to get the car repaired....
  • on the road
    on the road Posts: 5,631
    Pokerface wrote:
    Engine braking is a great way to f@ck up your gearbox.
    Going from say 5th gear to 1st gear would be bad, but going down 1 gear at a time I'm sure won't do any damage. I'm not a mechanic so maybe you know more than me, but I don't think it can do much damage when changing down 1 gear at a time as long as you let the revs drop as well.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    fossyant wrote:
    some young girl rear ended my wife on Saturday....

    You wish.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    jairaj wrote:
    mrushton wrote:
    Would be nice if we were all taught using a skidpan how to control a car in less than ideal conditions. Could be a revenue earner for the Police

    I think in Finland this is part of the standard driving test. How awesome it that?! you have to learn how to power slide before you can pass your test :twisted:

    When I was there before Christmas some local chav chucked is car into a slide in the McD's car park. I thought he would come through the plate glass window and kill me and the family who were right in his path as his British counterpart would have. Instead he brought it to a perfect stop, completely square to the parking space. It was the best bit of car control I've seen, no wonder they've produced some great rally drivers over the years.
  • JamesB
    JamesB Posts: 1,184
    Not driving technique but why do so many idiots drive in fog with no lights on? Saw dozen or more today when out cycling (me with two rear flashing lights. flashing front and red jacket to save my life ie be seen!)---particularly good are teh silver / grey cars in fog and snow and no lights, what is it with these guys, don`t they realise lights are to see with and be seen by??? :shock: :shock:

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