Employment law advice

clanton

We had a lot of snow last night, as did much of the country. We would have struggled to get the car out but that would have been academic anyway as our road was blocked by two cars wedged firmly in the snow, going nowhere. So the wife decided to cycle to work, on her slicked up, commuting mtb. There are no trains heading that way and as far as we know no buses were running up our way.
An hour later she returned having covered less than 3 miles and fallen once. Against my advice she swapped to her regular mtb with nobbly tyres and did get to work, taking 1 1/4 hours to do 8 miles.
With more snow on the way she expressed some doubt about getting in to work tomorrow whereupon the boss told her that if she didn't it would come out of her leave.
Bearing in mind she has been with this company for over 6 years and has an excellent work ethic, having taken 4 days off sick over this whole time I thought this more than a little unfair! But the question is really, is this legal?? Assuming the buses aren't running and we can't get the car out - are they within rights to dock her leave?

Ian.B

Clanton, take a look here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8442851.stm

Gazzaputt

According to an employment lawyer on the BBC this morning your pay cannot be docked but he never mentioned leave.

If I were the same position I'd go to work and take as much time as I need to get there.

What an arse the manager must be the effort your wife made is beyond what is required.

clanton

I am more than a little disappointed in their attitude to put it politely. Having read through the link (thanks) it seems they would be within their rights to dock at least one day's leave.

alfablue

They are being heavy handed, did you read this bit?

Q. Anything else for bosses to bear in mind?
Bear in mind there is a potential health and safety implication. If authorities are telling people to stay at home unless their journey is essential then, potentially, you may not want to put too much pressure on people to return to work.
Employers have a duty of care to their employees and a potential liability may exist if employees were pressurised into travelling by car or foot when conditions were dangerous.
Employers should therefore take a balanced approach between encouraging employees to make all reasonable efforts to get to work and forcing them into a situation where they feel they have no alternative but to travel to work or risk facing possible disciplinary action.

Her employer may be in effect requiring her to take unacceptable risks, and it may be contrary to the official advice given by the police/met office/highways agency. Maybe the boss needs to be warned that s/he will be held liable for injuries and damages sustained if forced to travel against official advice.

Greg T

she should go sick.

redvee

Our comapny looked into this yesterday and the words that fluttered to to the workers were that

If an employee makes it and and is sent home then they get paid as normal
If they phone in and say I'm gonna surf the BR forums then they will lose a days holiday.

The situation of being told not to come in whilst in transit wasn't mentioned to the workers but I'd imagine it would be the same as the first scenario. Google should be able to help you here as no doubt there are 000's in the same boat as you.

the_hundredth_idiot

My employer communicated with all staff earlier in the week when the bad weather was forecast.

* Staff who are not able to get to work should take either a day's holiday, use Time off in Lieu or one day's unpaid leave.
* Staff who have to look after children due to school or nursery closures and cannot work should take either a day's holiday Time off in Lieu or one day's unpaid leave. (Please note that under health and safety regulations parents cannot be "working from home" and "caring for children" at the same time.)

Having said that, it's a fairly flexible firm and, in practice, managers would be happy with staff making time up over the next few weeks.

beverick

At our line manager's discretion we're expected to either make up the time, take holiday or time in leiu (if owed). I don't think it's unreasonable as it stops the 'led swingers'.

For example, we've had people make it into the office having travelled 60-70 miles whereas people on the next pod living three miles away have rung in saying that they're snowed in.

Bob

DonDaddyD

Greg T wrote:

she should go sick.

This.

She should say she got ill when she had to ride to work in the freezing cold snow having been all but forced to go to work.

Some would go as far as getting a Doctor's note. Or even further and claim time off work signed by the doctor for stress caused by the pressure of having been forced to come into work by extreme means.

Employers can get nasty and so can Employees.

I however wouldn't, its not school and people shouldn't need to go down that route.

If I can't get into work tomorrow, I'll work from home (I'm already sending myself work via e-mail and setting up MS Exchange). I accept that some don't have these options.

suzyb

DonDaddyD wrote:

If I can't get into work tomorrow, I'll work from home (I'm already sending myself work via e-mail and setting up MS Exchange). I accept that some don't have these options.

And some managers wont allow the option.

I used to work in an office 30 miles from home. Our manager regularly worked from home when he needed to get some paperwork done without interruption but we always had to go into the office. Even when it snowed heavily during the night and it took me almost 4 hours to get there. I could have done the work at home and got more done not taking half a day to get to the office but I still had to go in :evil:

spen666

The Hundredth Idiot wrote:

.....(Please note that under health and safety regulations parents cannot be "working from home" and "caring for children" at the same time.)
....

I'd love to knowwhose H&S regs these are. I cannot believe there is any legislation in this respect at all

clanton

I do understand the problem of people using it as an excuse to shirk off. But this is a small company, that know her well. She has never skived a day in her life. Having checked, no buses are running in our area at all, the car is simply not an option, walking 8 miles to work in snow is ludicrous. Having biked in today at what I feel was considerable risk to herself (and proven she's no skiver!), they expect her to do the same tomorrow - regardless of the conditions.

TBH I'm furious.

DonDaddyD

clanton wrote:

I do understand the problem of people using it as an excuse to shirk off. But this is a small company, that know her well. She has never skived a day in her life. Having checked, no buses are running in our area at all, the car is simply not an option, walking 8 miles to work in snow is ludicrous. Having biked in today at what I feel was considerable risk to herself (and proven she's no skiver!), they expect her to do the same tomorrow - regardless of the conditions.

TBH I'm furious.

They expect her to come into work. The means of transport isn't their concern. If it's dangerous she shouldn't cycle.

I didn't take the bike today and got to work at 10.30 though left my house around 8.45. It should only take 50mins door to door via underground. If its too dangerous tell her not to take the bike.

Tomorrow, get her to phone work early explaining that she'll be running late because of 'transport' delays. If she then gets to work at 12.30 there is not much anyone can do really.

redvee

Last February one of the staff phoned in cause of snow and it affecting the trains Between Bath & Bristol, he spoke to the head honcho who made it into work.............from Bath on the train, the exact same train as the leg swinger said wasn't running :oops:

rolf_f

clanton wrote:

I do understand the problem of people using it as an excuse to shirk off. But this is a small company, that know her well. She has never skived a day in her life. Having checked, no buses are running in our area at all, the car is simply not an option, walking 8 miles to work in snow is ludicrous. Having biked in today at what I feel was considerable risk to herself (and proven she's no skiver!), they expect her to do the same tomorrow - regardless of the conditions.

TBH I'm furious.

Small company - maybe can't afford to subsidise absence that much? Ultimately, it isn't the companies fault that she is unable to get into work. Effectively, if people who can't get in to work because of the weather get a free days holiday, it is unfair to those who do get in.

The sensible approach, if possible, would be to find her a means of working from home but, if that isn't possible, I think its tough. Don't really understand why you are furious - hasn't the boss already given her one day? You might think that it isn't her fault that the weather won't let her get to work, but it isn't the bosses fault either.

clanton

Rolf F wrote:

clanton wrote:

I do understand the problem of people using it as an excuse to shirk off. But this is a small company, that know her well. She has never skived a day in her life. Having checked, no buses are running in our area at all, the car is simply not an option, walking 8 miles to work in snow is ludicrous. Having biked in today at what I feel was considerable risk to herself (and proven she's no skiver!), they expect her to do the same tomorrow - regardless of the conditions.

TBH I'm furious.

Small company - maybe can't afford to subsidise absence that much? Ultimately, it isn't the companies fault that she is unable to get into work. Effectively, if people who can't get in to work because of the weather get a free days holiday, it is unfair to those who do get in.

The sensible approach, if possible, would be to find her a means of working from home but, if that isn't possible, I think its tough. Don't really understand why you are furious - hasn't the boss already given her one day? You might think that it isn't her fault that the weather won't let her get to work, but it isn't the bosses fault either.

Working from home not an option in her line of work.
She didn't get a free day - she got in today. It took 2 1/2 hours, she came off the bike once, a number of near falls. She's on the way home now, on the bike again. I would have fetched her - BUT I CANT GET THE CAR OUT. Conditions are forecast to be worse tomorrow.
I'm not saying that everyone should have a day off everytime it snows - far from it. If however you have exhausted all reasonable options to get in to work then common sense should prevail. Putting pressure on people to take physical risks to get to work is not reasonable.
I think what she did today was well beyond the call of duty. She didn't get "thanks for coming in". She got - "you better show up tomorrow or else." Do you think it unreasonable that I am angry?

DonDaddyD

clanton wrote:

Working from home not an option in her line of work.
She didn't get a free day - she got in today. It took 2 1/2 hours, she came off the bike once, a number of near falls. She's on the way home now, on the bike again. I would have fetched her - BUT I CANT GET THE CAR OUT. Conditions are forecast to be worse tomorrow.
I'm not saying that everyone should have a day off everytime it snows - far from it. If however you have exhausted all reasonable options to get in to work then common sense should prevail. Putting pressure on people to take physical risks to get to work is not reasonable.
I think what she did today was well beyond the call of duty. She didn't get "thanks for coming in". She got - "you better show up tomorrow or else." Do you think it unreasonable that I am angry?

I've been in a similar situation when I had half my face swallon from a tooth infection, signed off for two weeks from a doctor and still the NHS trust tried to investigate via their Occupational Health department. Their view was I could have gone to work.

"What could I do" was my cry, when I got back to work I took in pictures of my face as I roared injustice. The Occupational Health department supported me and they couldn't take the issue further. My Manager who had been influenced by others back tracked claiming that it was to see if they could do anything to help "Health assessment". I told him his actions had left a sour taste in my mouth far worse than the infection and served to do nothing but demotivate and lower my expectation of him professionally. He since sent me on a PRINCE2 course and in someways developed me to get my now current job.

Your wife can either:

Complain and take it further, esculate it upwards i.e. grievance.
Live with it and find alternate means to get to work.
Get petty.
Take leave, go unpaid or owe hours in lieu.

I would probably take leave, go unpaid or owe hours in lieu. Money isn't the be all-end all in my life circumstances. However, its different for others.

clanton

You're right that b1tching about it won't solve anything. I am looking into alternate options for her tomorrow, and if it comes down to it we can certainly afford for her to take time off. It is the pettiness of their attitude that gets to me. If the buses were running it would be a different matter - but even they can't run on GRITTED roads. How is she supposed to get there?

ARRGH! Rant over. Suffice it to say that she has in the past shown significant loyalty to these people, worked extra shifts when staff shortages arose, forgone a pay rise when times were tough. To me, and her, this feels like a kick in the teeth. I am sick to my stomach about it.

rolf_f

clanton wrote:

I'm not saying that everyone should have a day off everytime it snows - far from it. If however you have exhausted all reasonable options to get in to work then common sense should prevail. Putting pressure on people to take physical risks to get to work is not reasonable.
I think what she did today was well beyond the call of duty. She didn't get "thanks for coming in". She got - "you better show up tomorrow or else." Do you think it unreasonable that I am angry?

I think some appreciation and positive approach from management wouldn't come amiss - that is just about decent people management skills. However, the employer wasn't in any way putting pressure on anyone to take risks as far as I can see from your posts. What occurs between your house and place of work is in your own time - you don't start work until you reach the building and your bosses duty to you doesn't start until then. The only way the boss would be putting pressure on someone to take risks is if they said you had to come in and that taking time off in lieu, leave etc wasn't an option. I just can't see how it can be the employers fault that you live 8 miles from work. TBH, this sounds like the modern plague of not taking responsibility for ones own actions. If it was me I'd be saying come to work or take leave - and if you did come in, I'd be rather flexible about start and finish times.

AndyManc

This issue is a grey area, employers have no responsibility for getting staff into work.

Most companies expect staff to make every 'reasonable' effort to get into work, clearly, the definition of reasonable will vary greatly from company to company.

I've been using the bus over the past 3 weeks, yesterday they were all cancelled, walking 6 miles in sub zero temps in treacherous conditions is unreasonable, I stayed home.

This situation is were union membership comes in very handy.

cjw

It's not grey;

Employees are required to attend work as per their contract.

However, employers (IMHO) are daft if they don't show goodwill.

Mandy Laurie, partner, employment team, Dundas & Wilson
With the coldest winter in a decade predicted, I am concerned about employee absence levels. Is my company legally obliged to pay employees who fail to make it to work because of adverse weather conditions?

Employees are obliged to attend work in terms of their contracts of employment. This applies even in extreme weather conditions. Therefore, you would be within your rights to refuse to pay an employee who cannot make it into work because they are 'snowed in' or because public transport has been cancelled due to the weather.

However, you should assess whether this would be in the interests of your business. It may be that the financial burden to the business of paying staff in these circumstances is outweighed by the benefits that such a gesture would have on staff morale and productivity in the long run.

AndyManc

cjw wrote:

It's not grey;

It is grey, expecting employees to risk personal injury attempting to get into work is not a 'reasonable' contract .


.

rolf_f

AndyManc wrote:

cjw wrote:

It's not grey;

It is grey, expecting employees to risk personal injury attempting to get into work is not a 'reasonable' contract .


.

It isn't grey. There is no expectation of anyone risking injury attempting to get to work as long as the employee is not forced to come in - eg by telling them that they have to come in or face the sack. As long as they are allowed to stay at home, paid or unpaid, you cannot say that the employer is putting their employees at risk.

cjw

Afraid that's not grey either.

1. Your employment contract starts from when you attend the work place

and

2.

However, Charlotte Pegman, a solicitor at law firm Hubbard Pegman and Whitney warned that, contrary to popular belief, an employer would not necessarily be to blame if a worker injured themselves due the recent extreme weather conditions.

She said: "If you slip in the car park at work or in the entrance to the office, or, if you work outside, doing your daily work, then unless your employer had the time, resources and ability to clear the snow and should have done so, there is no absolute right to damages if your employer doesn't clear away snow. Employees must take steps to mitigate their own risk."

waddlie

Speaking as a rather unpopular manager...

When we had the last load of snow in February, I asked all staff who couldn't make it in to take the hours off their choice of leave (annual/flexi/TOIL). I made one exception for a member of staff who had genuinely exceptional circumstances.

Yesterday I let my staff know that anyone who didn't turn up would have to sacrifice leave or make the hours up. As a gesture of goodwill, any member of staff who turned up late would not be penalised at all.

I then got it in the neck from my staff because "I hadn't been fair" last February. Staff have a tendency to assume they're getting the raw end of every deal going and as a manager it's immensely frustrating.

I can't give the whole office the day off. If I reward those who make it in, I'm not being fair to those who genuinely couldn't get to work. If there is no incentive to come in on a snowy day, people will frankly take the piss. If the office is empty, there's a load of important work not being done which I will get it in the neck for.

Put yourself in my position and tell me what you'd do.

rolf_f

TBH, I'm staggered at how many people seem to think it is their employers responsibility that they, the employee, make a lifestyle choice to live more than walking distance from their place of work. If you want to get to work every day, without any hassle or snow blockage, live nearer your work. If you don't want to live near your office (and I don't) accept that sometimes you'll have to make a sacrifice. Bear in mind that losing 8 hours in one day is a tiny amount of lost time compared to the total amount of extra time you are choosing to waste because you don't live a short walk from work (eg 220 work days per year, say 40 minutes extra commute time against a short walk - 80 minutes a day = nearly 300 hours commuting you don't have to do).

lost_in_thought

Waddlie, because I'm curious, what were the 'genuinely exceptional circumstances'?

I completely agree with your point of view by the way. I've been lucky enough to always work for companies where I can work from home in situations such as these.

acidstrato

redvee wrote:

Our comapny looked into this yesterday and the words that fluttered to to the workers were that

If an employee makes it and and is sent home then they get paid as normal
If they phone in and say I'm gonna surf the BR forums then they will lose a days holiday.

by 'looked into' do you mean into uk law? or company policy?

I bared the weather today, got up at usual time and drove in, only to be sent home within an hour and a half (over the phone). I was told I wont be paid a full days wage. I had no choice in the matter. So I dont see why I should be made short. Unfortunately we have no union at work so we are on our own but so far I cant find any solid information

redvee

acidstrato wrote:

redvee wrote:

Our comapny looked into this yesterday and the words that fluttered to to the workers were that

If an employee makes it and and is sent home then they get paid as normal
If they phone in and say I'm gonna surf the BR forums then they will lose a days holiday.

by 'looked into' do you mean into uk law? or company policy?

I think it was UK law as there wasn't anything in place in the company policy for such circumstances I guess.

waddlie

lost_in_thought wrote:

Waddlie, because I'm curious, what were the 'genuinely exceptional circumstances'?

I completely agree with your point of view by the way. I've been lucky enough to always work for companies where I can work from home in situations such as these.

The member of staff suffers from a medical condition which renders them largely immobile most of the time, and even more immobile when they are cold. I couldn't have expected them to walk in if they lived half a mile away, never mind the actual five miles they would have needed to walk.

Also agree with RolfF. When I lived in London I put up with all the trials and tribulations of living fairly centrally. The constant commuting-related-whining, lateness and expectations of special treatment from the girl who insisted on commuting in from Brighton did my head in.