Doping article of interest

dennisn

The latest issue of "Outside" magazine(Jan.-Feb.) has an interesting article on doping.
Sort of a slam at the WADA, IOC, and the rest, but interesting anyway. It's not on their website that I know of. Just the magazine. FWIW

BikingBernie

A synopsis perhaps?

By the way, I saw this and thought of you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150385

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

A synopsis perhaps?

By the way, I saw this and thought of you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150385

The author seemed to be against most of the anti doping agencies because of their ability
to ruin peoples lives and livelihoods on what he considers "not so good science"(my words - for lack of better ones). He makes some compelling arguments but it's pretty one sided. As I recall he mentioned that Greece had recently passed a law making sports doping a crime punishable by jail time. He was talking years in the slam. Remind me not to compete in anything in Greece. He also mentioned that Austria was considering similar laws. Sounds pretty crazy, if true, especially if there is a chance of false positives.

Good one about Ayn.

Pokerface

dennisn wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

A synopsis perhaps?

By the way, I saw this and thought of you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150385

The author seemed to be against most of the anti doping agencies because of their ability
to ruin peoples lives and livelihoods on what he considers "not so good science"(my words - for lack of better ones). He makes some compelling arguments but it's pretty one sided. As I recall he mentioned that Greece had recently passed a law making sports doping a crime punishable by jail time. He was talking years in the slam. Remind me not to compete in anything in Greece. He also mentioned that Austria was considering similar laws. Sounds pretty crazy, if true, especially if there is a chance of false positives.

Good one about Ayn.

Austria recently ratified the law against doping in sport. Up to 3 years in jail if convicted: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/austria ... oping-laws.

iainf72

What were the authors qualifications?

terongi

BikingBernie wrote:

By the way, I saw this and thought of you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150385

"If you wanna be a non-conformist, all you have to do is dress like us and listen to the same music we do."

Brilliant.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

dennisn wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

A synopsis perhaps?

By the way, I saw this and thought of you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150385

The author seemed to be against most of the anti doping agencies because of their ability
to ruin peoples lives and livelihoods on what he considers "not so good science"(my words - for lack of better ones). He makes some compelling arguments but it's pretty one sided. As I recall he mentioned that Greece had recently passed a law making sports doping a crime punishable by jail time. He was talking years in the slam. Remind me not to compete in anything in Greece. He also mentioned that Austria was considering similar laws. Sounds pretty crazy, if true, especially if there is a chance of false positives.

Good one about Ayn.

Austria recently ratified the law against doping in sport. Up to 3 years in jail if convicted: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/austria ... oping-laws.

I sure don't see too much in the way of sports happening in Greece and Austria if there is the threat of jail time for anyone who test positive. Even clean atheltes will avoid going there on the chance that they might get a false positive. Or am I overlooking something?

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

What were the authors qualifications?

I'll look up his name and qualifications tonight, at home, and let you know tommorrow.
IF I remember. :oops: :oops: :? :?
Old age you know.

disgruntledgoat

I think everyone needs to take a step back when you've got to the point where you can dole out jail time for cheating at sports. I include athletes, governing bodies, legislators the works. That is crazy.

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think everyone needs to take a step back when you've got to the point where you can dole out jail time for cheating at sports. I include athletes, governing bodies, legislators the works. That is crazy.

I believe it is based on fraud.

"Under the new law, those who are suspended would also have a lifelong ban on receiving federal sports funding, and could be required to pay back any such funding received after the time of the doping. Suspended athletes who wish to return to their sport must be available for doping controls for one year before they return, an increase from six months.

In addition, doping with a damage of more than 100 Euros will be considered a major fraud, and is punishable with up to three years in prison."

So the doping violation itself isn't punishable by prison time. Rules are rules - if you break them, then expect to be punished. It's no different than an accountant that cooks the books to swindle money from his bosses, the government, etc.

All well and good to say that it's going overboard to jail someone for cheating at sport - but when thousands and thousands of <insert local currency here> is stake, then it's not just cheating at sport. It's cheating at business.

moray_gub

Pokerface wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think everyone needs to take a step back when you've got to the point where you can dole out jail time for cheating at sports. I include athletes, governing bodies, legislators the works. That is crazy.

All well and good to say that it's going overboard to jail someone for cheating at sport - but when thousands and thousands of <insert local currency here> is stake, then it's not just cheating at sport. It's cheating at business.

On that basis a simple dive in the penalty box to win the Football World Cup is no different.

jerry3571

I think being drunk or drugged on a bike is an offense in the uk.
I think 3 years is a bit harsh but never understood that why you could go to jail if you took illegal drugs in normal life but not in a sporting context.

-Jerry

pontarlier_pete

Re jail time. As long as it's linked to intent, I don't think anyone can have any complaints. Then "accidental" positives will stay punishable by a ban.

gabriel959

Since September last year you can also serve jail time in Spain for doping offences.

disgruntledgoat

Pontarlier Pete wrote:

Re jail time. As long as it's linked to intent, I don't think anyone can have any complaints. Then "accidental" positives will stay punishable by a ban.

I think they can complain... At the end of the day, you're cheating to win a bike race or a tennis match or something. If you repay any prize money you won in the event you were proved to have cheated at (which is already enforcable by law) then you're left with the offence of "cheating at games"... which for me is a waste of a prison cell whihc could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

What were the authors qualifications?

FWIW His name is Brian Alexander. No other info. It wasn't a tech or medical type of article. More of a view from the side of the WADA being an overly powerful, out of control agency. That type of thing. What really got to me was the fact that governments are now getting involved. That's sure to make a real mess of things(IMHO).

iainf72

dennisn wrote:

FWIW His name is Brian Alexander. No other info. It wasn't a tech or medical type of article. More of a view from the side of the WADA being an overly powerful, out of control agency. That type of thing. What really got to me was the fact that governments are now getting involved. That's sure to make a real mess of things(IMHO).

I see - So he was saying a lot of it was based on bad science but didn't appear to be a scientist?

WADA just set policy - Sports governing bodies implement the policy. Of course goverments are involved - They inject a lot of money into things like Olympics etc.

I'd be curious what the motivation behind the article was....

Pokerface

disgruntledgoat wrote:

... which for me is a waste of a prison cell which could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

I didn't realize that in Austria there were a set number of prison cells and once they are all full they stop putting people in prison.

RichN95.

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think they can complain... At the end of the day, you're cheating to win a bike race or a tennis match or something. If you repay any prize money you won in the event you were proved to have cheated at (which is already enforcable by law) then you're left with the offence of "cheating at games"... which for me is a waste of a prison cell whihc could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

You could say the same about any kind of fraud. I mean, if Bernie Madoff somehow managed to repay everyone, would you let him off,as all he was guilty of would be 'telling a couple of porkies".

DaveyL

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

FWIW His name is Brian Alexander. No other info. It wasn't a tech or medical type of article. More of a view from the side of the WADA being an overly powerful, out of control agency. That type of thing. What really got to me was the fact that governments are now getting involved. That's sure to make a real mess of things(IMHO).

I see - So he was saying a lot of it was based on bad science but didn't appear to be a scientist?

WADA just set policy - Sports governing bodies implement the policy. Of course goverments are involved - They inject a lot of money into things like Olympics etc.

I'd be curious what the motivation behind the article was....

Denboy is usually quite big on questioning people's motivations for writing things...

jerry3571

I do like it on the newspeople say " madoff with the money."
Small things please...

I always think it funny when you get a Carpenter with the surname Carpenter or Gardener with the surname Gardener.
"Well, Mr Madoff, what do you propose to with all my money...??"
Hmmm...

Sorry I digressed!

Back to the plot as this is a cycling forum!!

-Jerry

(In the Uk we pronounce his name 'Made off'. That just makes me smile)

disgruntledgoat

RichN95 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think they can complain... At the end of the day, you're cheating to win a bike race or a tennis match or something. If you repay any prize money you won in the event you were proved to have cheated at (which is already enforcable by law) then you're left with the offence of "cheating at games"... which for me is a waste of a prison cell whihc could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

You could say the same about any kind of fraud. I mean, if Bernie Madoff somehow managed to repay everyone, would you let him off,as all he was guilty of would be 'telling a couple of porkies".

No he wouldn't... he'd be guilty of manipulating the markets on which a good part of the world depend for their income and savings. PLlus he hasn't repaid the money so it's a moot point. Either way, it's still more of a big deal than cheating at sport.

LangerDan

I believe the drive is not the prize money within sport but the far greater amounts of money bet on it. An event result that has been skewed through doping (or match fixing or swapping racehorses) costs far more than the prize money involved.

bigmat

Didn't Pantani face sporting fraud proceedings in Italy years ago? Basically sport has become big business. If you are succeeding by breaking the rules then you are defrauding people to make money. Put the whole glorous pursuit of victory to one side and you are basically just stealing. By DG's analysis, any thief should be let off as long as they pay back what they stole, or am I missing something?

Anyway, do we really believe in false positives? These kind of laws can either deter sportsmen from competing in those countries that have them or, shock horror, might deter them from taking drugs in the first place :roll:

Murr X

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Pontarlier Pete wrote:

Re jail time. As long as it's linked to intent, I don't think anyone can have any complaints. Then "accidental" positives will stay punishable by a ban.

I think they can complain... At the end of the day, you're cheating to win a bike race or a tennis match or something. If you repay any prize money you won in the event you were proved to have cheated at (which is already enforcable by law) then you're left with the offence of "cheating at games"... which for me is a waste of a prison cell whihc could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

I must agree with this, although there is much money involved I would not be happy to see athletes go to jail for doping at all.

RichN95.

disgruntledgoat wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

You could say the same about any kind of fraud. I mean, if Bernie Madoff somehow managed to repay everyone, would you let him off,as all he was guilty of would be 'telling a couple of porkies".

No he wouldn't... he'd be guilty of manipulating the markets on which a good part of the world depend for their income and savings. PLlus he hasn't repaid the money so it's a moot point. Either way, it's still more of a big deal than cheating at sport.

OK. It was an extreme example. How about John "Canoe Man" Darwin - about £150k for faking his own death and claiming the insurance.

Now I believe the authorities managed to recoup all the money (might be wrong here) - so should he and his wife be serving six years?

You can't make a crime go away just by making amends.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

FWIW His name is Brian Alexander. No other info. It wasn't a tech or medical type of article. More of a view from the side of the WADA being an overly powerful, out of control agency. That type of thing. What really got to me was the fact that governments are now getting involved. That's sure to make a real mess of things(IMHO).

I see - So he was saying a lot of it was based on bad science but didn't appear to be a scientist?

I'd be curious what the motivation behind the article was....

For the money. What else? I'm not defending him or his ideas. Just thought it was an interesting article. I seem to read just about anything I can get my hands on and that was something I read.

pontarlier_pete

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Pontarlier Pete wrote:

Re jail time. As long as it's linked to intent, I don't think anyone can have any complaints. Then "accidental" positives will stay punishable by a ban.

I think they can complain... At the end of the day, you're cheating to win a bike race or a tennis match or something. If you repay any prize money you won in the event you were proved to have cheated at (which is already enforcable by law) then you're left with the offence of "cheating at games"... which for me is a waste of a prison cell whihc could be occupied by somebody posing a danger to others.

But it's not just "cheating in sport", which makes it sound like some playground where they're given a pat on the cheek and a "you rascal!" and then everyone goes down the pub to laugh about it. Top level cycling is a multi-million pound enterprise. There is:

- Illegal drug use.
- Illegal drug dealing.
- Preventing honest cyclists from earning their true living;
- deceiving sponsors;
- deceiving betting companies;

It's a much bigger deal and has far more ramifications than one guy laughing about it down the pub, and it should be treated as such.

Pokerface

If you're going to pay people millions of dollars/euros/pounds to ride a bike then it's no longer just 'sport'. It's business. And big business at that.

The ramifications therefore go up.

On the surface it's simplistic to say that an 'athlete' should go to jail for 'cheating' and that's it's overkill. But if we insist on paying them insane amounts of money, then they should be held to a higher standard.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

If you're going to pay people millions of dollars/euros/pounds to ride a bike then it's no longer just 'sport'. It's business. And big business at that.

The ramifications therefore go up.

On the surface it's simplistic to say that an 'athlete' should go to jail for 'cheating' and that's it's overkill. But if we insist on paying them insane amounts of money, then they should be held to a higher standard.

You make a good point. Just seems a really sad state of affairs. You've got bunches of people cheating or trying to cheat the system and bunches of people trying to catch them.
Then there are the abuses on both sides. I doubt that there is much common sense being
used in the whole affair. Seems to be turning into an us vs them never ending sort of thing. I do think that sports will survive all this(even with governments involved). Although
I tend to think that with all the big dollars involved, lots of things are going to look more like sports entertainment(i.e. pro wrestling) than sports. That would be sad.

jerry3571

I suppose sporting fraud is a fair point. Cycling, in the professional sense, has always been about business. The Pink and Yellow Jersey have been born out of advertising an Italian and French newspaper. The Amstel Gold Race, named after the Beer Company. All the Teams sponsoring are only doing it for commercial gain. The point of winning is to get the company name in the press for a bit of status and a good PR.
If one trade team cheats in order to get more coverage then I guess it is type of fraud.
I think we can assume that our sport has been spawned from the back side of Corperate Capitalism. Devil wears Prada with pair of Oakleys to go. (The Devil doesn't really wear sunglasses; I've seen the pictures) :twisted:

-Jerry

Ah, maybe he does...