Tactics in High mountains
Can someone help me with a query that has been bugging me for a while:
How does having a team mate in the high mountains help a rider?
I am assuming here that if you are climbing a 7-10% slope for 10-20 km the slipstream effect is not going to be worth much. Am I wrong about that?
Does it matter who is "doing the work" on the front of a group in the high mountains?
It seems to me that either you have got the legs to climb at a certain speed or you haven't. So if you are Sastre, how does it help to have Jens Voigt gurning his way up the mountain at the front of the group?
How does having a team mate in the high mountains help a rider?
I am assuming here that if you are climbing a 7-10% slope for 10-20 km the slipstream effect is not going to be worth much. Am I wrong about that?
Does it matter who is "doing the work" on the front of a group in the high mountains?
It seems to me that either you have got the legs to climb at a certain speed or you haven't. So if you are Sastre, how does it help to have Jens Voigt gurning his way up the mountain at the front of the group?
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terongi wrote:Can someone help me with a query that has been bugging me for a while:
How does having a team mate in the high mountains help a rider?
I am assuming here that if you are climbing a 7-10% slope for 10-20 km the slipstream effect is not going to be worth much. Am I wrong about that?
Does it matter who is "doing the work" on the front of a group in the high mountains?
It seems to me that either you have got the legs to climb at a certain speed or you haven't. So if you are Sastre, how does it help to have Jens Voigt gurning his way up the mountain at the front of the group?
I am guessing you don't ride a bike in a group much?
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Waht a patronising and unuselful answer that was.0
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terongi wrote:Can someone help me with a query that has been bugging me for a while:
How does having a team mate in the high mountains help a rider?
I am assuming here that if you are climbing a 7-10% slope for 10-20 km the slipstream effect is not going to be worth much. Am I wrong about that?
Does it matter who is "doing the work" on the front of a group in the high mountains?
It seems to me that either you have got the legs to climb at a certain speed or you haven't. So if you are Sastre, how does it help to have Jens Voigt gurning his way up the mountain at the front of the group?
It depends what position the protected rider is in. If you're leading the race, then you want your team-mates to set a high tempo in order to discourage attacks.
Otherwise, you could send a team-mate on the attack in order to make your rivals chase.
Plus you still need someone to fetch you drinks, and slipstreaming still works in the mountains, even if it has less effect than on the flat. Having a team-mate basically gives you options.0 -
afx covers it really well. Would also add even though slipstreaming is less than on the flat, a team mate can also provide protection from wind by riding in front/to the side of you. It all adds up.
Plus if you have a problem with your bike, puncture etc a team mate can always give you his bike so you can stay in contention. Just look at Cadel Evans in the Vuelta this year who effectively lost the chance of a Grand Tour win as he had no team mate with him when he punctured and neutral service took a minute to get him back in the race.0 -
Teammates are especially useful *just before* a big climb.
Because it's much harder to cover the same distance uphill than flat, it is imperritive for those who can ride mountains well to be well placed near the front when the group hits the climb.
Sastre lost out on Verbier because he wasn't well placed - that extra 20m to make up on a climb is an awful lot of time when it's quite steep.
Similarly, a teammate can keep the pace high enough to punish those who arn't well placed. (Saxo bank on the early Verbier slopes anyone?)
On the climb itself, fetching bottles etc can be hassle if the group is big enough that you need to drop back behind the group to get them, for the same reason as above.
Isn't there also a psychological advantage to being paced up by someone?Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0 -
The psychological thing is a good point. It must play on your mind hugely if you start the day knowing you're going to lose all your helpers as soon as the race gets tough.0
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The other psychological benefit as well as real benefit is that if anyone does attack you can send your team mate after him and he can just sit there on their wheel doing nothing this can be very irritating for the rider trying to get away and means you don't have to chase for yourself.0
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I think that AFX's 1st point is the key for me. If you (as the leader) have somebody setting a high tempo who has nothing to gain from it, it discourages your rivals from attacking as you are still fresh and can (presumably) respond easily to any attacks.
As a favourite, towing a bunch uphill is stressfull as firstly, you don't know how hard an effort they can sustain compared to yourself and secondly, you don't know how much they can up the pace and how you will respond. Having a team-mate removes uncertainty.
As Tim Krabbe says "bike racing is about licking your opponents plate clean before you start on your own""In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
team mates help in alot of ways many already mentioned and while drafting effect is reduced the ability to respond to changes in pace between a single rider and a group is a different type of effort... for instance to stay in the wheels while you are paced back to a escaping GC contender is easier than chasing down on ones own... even immediately after a attack a rider with team mates makes a slower acceleration due to the lead of his team mates
the whole issue of tempo riding on mass (disco astana the shack) is another area where team counts
the ability to neutralise the mountains via team tactics
thou this does require team members who can raise and or hold the pace ... if Andy or bertie go up the road your pretty much left to your own devices UNLESS there is ways to go... if a GC contender is dropped but has team mates and there is along way to go the presence of team mates becomes critical
in the mountains team superiority counts for a LOT especially in long stage races"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:
As Tim Krabbe says "bike racing is about licking your opponents plate clean before you start on your own"
+1 the ability to make others uncomfortable with the situation is a big part of it
pressure"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
terongi wrote:
It seems to me that either you have got the legs to climb at a certain speed or you haven't. So if you are Sastre, how does it help to have Jens Voigt gurning his way up the mountain at the front of the group?
a lot of it comes down to the day...
lets say a gc rider is on a bad day he may still send team mates to ride tempo on the front to discourage attacks or to bluff..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
this topic is vast"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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A lot of the climbs can be very windy, so riding in a slipstream at slower speeds on a climb can be of benefit.
I seem to remember an article on Cycle Sport where Robert Millar was giving advice to Chris Boardman about wind conditions on particular climbs.
And didn't Johan Bruyneel make some sort of comment about not attacking on the first mountain stage of last years Tour as it was windy. A group of riders would be quicker than a rider on his own, something along those lines...0 -
greasedscotsman wrote:A lot of the climbs can be very windy, so riding in a slipstream at slower speeds on a climb can be of benefit.
I seem to remember an article on Cycle Sport where Robert Millar was giving advice to Chris Boardman about wind conditions on particular climbs.
And didn't Johan Bruyneel make some sort of comment about not attacking on the first mountain stage of last years Tour as it was windy. A group of riders would be quicker than a rider on his own, something along those lines...
yep
the switch backs went into and with wind and Berties timed his attack with the wind while LA was happy with a tempo pull from Kloden..
this meant by the time the gruppetto responded (andy mainly) they were starting there chase back into wind on the second switch back after his attack.
or Valverde bridging to Schymd just before the tree line gave way to cross winds
(sp>) on the Ventoux during the Dauphine
Evans had no team mates to work with while valv piti and schymd (that spelling ain't right) worked together"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Thanks all for the interesting and helpful replies.mididoctors wrote:this topic is vast
Midi, I've got plenty of time...0 -
Tempo is a big thing too. That's how Bertie wins, he keeps snapping the elastic.0
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This kind of tactic was almost unheard of pre-1994 - oddly co-inciding with the advent of EPO/blood-boosting - with the concept of rouleurs setting tempo on climbs - in the high mountains it was mano-a-mano and team leaders relied on a few trusty lieutenants who were good climbers too.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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terongi wrote:
Midi, I've got plenty of time...
if you have the time?
to get the best out of others, intelligent feedback to spring off is a good way to go
get a bit of a chit chat going"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
The flat bits between climbs can be vital - think of O'Grady et al chasing between the penultimate pass & the Joux-Plane on the 'Landis' stage, for instance; also Valverde losing time to the CSC train on the flat after getting dropped in the 2008 (?) Tour.
A flat run-in can be potentially more dangerous than a summit finish - if you lose team-mates on a final climb, it leaves a rider open to attack on the flat with no-one to do the chasing down. This happened to Heras in the Vuelta a few years ago but the teams in question didn't press home the advantage for some reason.
Years ago Cycle Sport reported a seminar Delgado did on using team-mates in mountain stages - his basic idea was to send riders down the road to set up various 'bridging' scenarios.0 -
disquieting_museeuws wrote:
Years ago Cycle Sport reported a seminar Delgado did on using team-mates in mountain stages - his basic idea was to send riders down the road to set up various 'bridging' scenarios.
indeed
old skool tactics
Escatin used it to get on the podium.... Riis attempted a coup in 1996 on the road to les arcs with Udo bolt... noticeably indurain became isolated and cracked that day
high tempo pace has reduced the incidence of such efforts as dangerous stepping stone riders are marked out by stronger teams
again the importance of team strength"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
