Roberts 953 or Enigma XCR

remy martin

I am looking at a steel option for 2010.

I've been riding a carbon Condor for a few years now and before that a Specialized Tarmac. Have been quite happy with both but I'm itching to get a good steel frame after having had a 853 steel mtb for about a year.

Riding wise, I commute daily rain, hail or shine and was looking at the stainless steel option largely because I can't afford the Ti frame that I'd want. Plus, I quite like the option of a painted frame. Whatever I decide on, it's going to be used in all sorts of weather. Oh, I realise there are £1K Ti frames out there but unfortunately they don't fit me.

I have seen an Enigma in the flesh. It looked fantastic and was extremely light. Haven't seen a Roberts but I've only ever heard good things about the company.

The Enigma frame is built with Columbus XCR (£1400) and I think is fillet brazed. The Roberts is lugged and buit with Reynolds 953 (£1100).

I'm 5'4 so, I'm unlikely to get a chance to test ride a frame that fits me. Since they're both custom bikes, I've no doubt that either will fit well.

However, for now, I would appreciate it if anyone here who has given either of these bikes a look / test ride would let me know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Monty Dog

I'm not sure the Cinelli comes painted - at that price who'd want to hide the craftsmanship? I'm not sure I'd go for lugged / brazed construction - kinda defeats the purpose of the material - it's less strong and weighs more - the only advantage is you could 'sweat' in a new tube if you stuff it. You should also look at Brian Rourke - he had one of the first 953 tubesets in the country - I saw a frame in the fresh and it sure was purdy. I kind of like the idea of an XCR too - has a timeless quality and having seen the consequences of crashing on lightweight carbon in races, I prefer something a bit more robust.

Moaner

I have the XCR on a long short list myself, but I'm a bit put off by having to travel to the ends of the earth to see one Not too bad for you though.
Anyway, sorry I can't help but will watch this thread closely.

da goose

Research the material very carefully as some builders only warranty 1 year as the heat treating clearly pushes the material to its limits.......I should know as my Litespeed cracked......last a lifetime erm I dont think so...

remy martin

Monty Dog,

Sorry I'm a bit confused about the Cinelli point. Are you referring to their XCR frame? Their version costs a small fortune. £2800 to be precise. Thats more than my whole buget including groupset etc.

I'm not sure I'd go for lugged / brazed construction - kinda defeats the purpose of the material - it's less strong and weighs more

I agree the lugged version is likely to weigh more but I'm not sure I agree that it's less strong?

Re Brian Rourke, I have seen his 953's on his website and they do look good but he is miles away from London. Both Enigma and Roberts are based in the south which at least means I might get a test ride.

Moaner,

Don't blame you about the travel. Even with Enigma in the South, it's almost a 2 hour journey each way for me. As I said earlier, I did see the Enigma model at the Cycleshow earlier this year, and it was quite a looker decked in Record parts. The welding work looked flawless and very smooth.
Good luck with your shortlisting.

da goose,

Sorry to hear about yout Litespeed.
Thanks for the tip re the warranty. Admittedly, I hadn't given the warranty much thought but will certainly bear that in mind whatever my final decision. I suppose though, the one advantage of steel is that its relatively repairable compared to titanium.

balthazar

I have only good things to say about Roberts. I love my Roberts frame which they built for me in 2004. The workmanship is superb and the level of finish beautiful. Mine is fillet-brazed from oversized Columbus Nivacrom EL, but if I chose tubes with more conventional proportions, I'd prefer lugs as well, simply for their historical grace. Roberts themselves are pragmatic about the benefits or costs; they'll build either way according to your preference. Generally, framebuilders have not reached a consensus. Lugs make fine bicycle frames and considerations of their weight are somewhere between irrelevant and boring, in my view.

I'm not sure why you particularly want stainless steel; if it's only because you are concerned about corrosion then I think you need not worry. A good cro-mo frame, treated internally with anti-rust goo, will not practically rust even if it's treated carelessly.

I don't think you have anything to gain from a "test-ride". Trust your framebuilder to make a frame that fits you according to your request. Comfort and so on is a consideration only for tyres and saddle, not frame material.

NervexProf

remy martin wrote:

I am looking at a steel option for 2010.

I've been riding a carbon Condor for a few years now and before that a Specialized Tarmac. Have been quite happy with both but I'm itching to get a good steel frame after having had a 853 steel mtb for about a year.

Riding wise, I commute daily rain, hail or shine and was looking at the stainless steel option largely because I can't afford the Ti frame that I'd want. Plus, I quite like the option of a painted frame. Whatever I decide on, it's going to be used in all sorts of weather. Oh, I realise there are £1K Ti frames out there but unfortunately they don't fit me.

I have seen an Enigma in the flesh. It looked fantastic and was extremely light. Haven't seen a Roberts but I've only ever heard good things about the company.

The Enigma frame is built with Columbus XCR (£1400) and I think is fillet brazed. The Roberts is lugged and buit with Reynolds 953 (£1100).

I'm 5'4 so, I'm unlikely to get a chance to test ride a frame that fits me. Since they're both custom bikes, I've no doubt that either will fit well.

However, for now, I would appreciate it if anyone here who has given either of these bikes a look / test ride would let me know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Remy - I have seen a 'Roberts 953 frameset, built by Chas Roberts in the rough, i.e. unpainted and it was exquisite.

See here for a review: http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... udax-32144

I highly recommend a vist to Chas at Croydon where Andrew will talk you through options and run you through 'fit' measurements et al.

I own to being biased having had a 'Roberts' for many years which Chas refinished for me recently - see here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41489547@N ... 048133146/

remy martin

Balthazar

I have only good things to say about Roberts. I love my Roberts frame which they built for me in 2004. The workmanship is superb and the level of finish beautiful. Mine is fillet-brazed from oversized Columbus Nivacrom EL, but if I chose tubes with more conventional proportions, I'd prefer lugs as well, simply for their historical grace. Roberts themselves are pragmatic about the benefits or costs; they'll build either way according to your preference. Other framebuilders have not reached a consensus. Lugs make fine bicycle frames and considerations of their weight are somewhere between irrelevant and boring, in my view.

I'm not sure why you particularly want stainless steel; if it's only because you are concerned about corrosion then I think you need not worry. A good cro-mo frame, treated internally with anti-rust goo, will not practically rust even if it's treated carelessly.

I don't think you have anything to gain from a "test-ride". Trust your framebuilder to make a frame that fits you according to your request. Comfort and so on is a consideration only for tyres and saddle, not frame material.

Thanks for posting the picture of your bike Balthazar. It's a great looking bike.
The lug issue isnt something I'm particularly fussed about as long as the welding of the tubes to the lugs are done well.

I'm looking at stainless steel, largely because I want a bike that will transfer what miniscule power I have in to propelling me forward. When I spoke to both Enigma and Roberts, I was told that the ride is 'stiffer' than conventional steel tubing. Of course, I won't know that until I try one out.

Re the test ride, its not really a case of not trusting either builder. I bought my previous bikes without having done one and they turned out fine. However, if I can arrnage one, I 'd be annoyed with myself for not having organised one.

remy martin

Wow Nervexprof. That is what I call refurbishing. I gather the pink version was how it used to look. I like the new look. Understated class.

I saw the Roberts audax review sometime back and in fact, thats what sparked my interest in Roberts frames.

I was hoping to head to Croydon over the last few days but Roberts are closed till the 6th. So I'll just have to be patient.

balthazar

I'm surprised by the claims that SS will result in a more laterally rigid frame — I thought that like steels all had the same material flexibility (regardless of other characteristics such as tensile strength)? Well, I'm no metallurgist, so I''ll leave that one for the better informed.

Either way, I'm envious of your position: I'd love to be ordering another frame right now, but have no justification nor spare money for it. Both Roberts(again) and Enigma would be on my short-shortlist too, though... I look forward, vicariously, to seeing what you end up with. Oh, and happy new year.

@Nervexprof: that's also lovely! I'm considering getting mine resprayed, especially if Roberts can supply the old block-serif logotype that the pink one had– I much prefer it to their recent ones..!

NervexProf

remy martin wrote:

Wow Nervexprof. That is what I call refurbishing. I gather the pink version was how it used to look. I like the new look. Understated class.

I saw the Roberts audax review sometime back and in fact, thats what sparked my interest in Roberts frames.

I was hoping to head to Croydon over the last few days but Roberts are closed till the 6th. So I'll just have to be patient.

remy - enjoy your visit on 6 Jan, or soon after.

There are some lovely complete machines to drool over, to spark your interest.
I had to keep a tight grip on my 'plastic' to avoid walking away with this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... life-10730

The .Newwex' lugs are something else - I would love them in stainless steel, this to accent the classic design.

Let us know what you eventuall;y decide on.

remy martin

Happy new year to you too Balthazar. I hope to head to Roberts in the next couple of weeks to actually see some of their bikes in the flesh and have a chat to Chas about a potential frame.

I really liked the Enigma but am finding it hard to justify spending an extra £400 for essentially the same type of frame.

Given the positive comments so far about the quality of Roberts frames, its increasingly likely that I'll decide to get one from them. And you and Nervexprof can be assured, I'll keep you updated.

Incidentally Nervexprof was it costly to have your bike repainted by Chas? Was it a case of you having to strip the parts down and then sending him the frame?

darren H

Remy
Ive had my Rourke 953 for over 2 years and Im 5ft 6"
Its around a size 53" but Brian measured me and tweaked the sizes slightly
Its painted red and the rear stays are left stainless. The build quality is fantastic and as rides go I cant fault it.

The tubes were very difficult to get hold of when I ordered mine. It took a good few months to wait for it but I wasnt in a hurry as I was busy saving to pay for it.

I would def recommend a custom build. Mine is lugless which gives it a kind of retro look which I wanted. It is a difficult steel to work with and it seems the builders who make frames with it are really the cream of brtish frame building.

If you decide to go to Rourkes for a measure up be prepared for a very in depth discussion with Brian.
I was at the shop for 5 hrs and couldnt have been made more welcome.

Good luck with whatever you choose
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Monty Dog

Oops - when you originally mentioned Columbus XCR my thought immediately went to the Cinelli - didn't mean to blow a hole in your budget

NervexProf

Incidentally Nervexprof was it costly to have your bike repainted by Chas? Was it a case of you having to strip the parts down and then sending him the frame?[/quote]

I removed all parts - took the frame and fork over in the car. The cost, if I recall correctly was £125 finished in metallic silver, with black lug lining.

On the subject of decals, 'Roberts' don't use them - they use stencils.

Don't expect a fast turnaround, frames are refinished off-site, at Dartford I think?

That said, the finish is superb.

remy martin

Darrenh, 5 hours in the shop with Rourkes. Thats impressive dedication from the staff to spend that much time with a customer. Have you got any pictures of your Rourke 953 you could show us?

I have little doubt that I will choose a custom frame builder. It's currently just a matter of who I choose. I'll have a better idea after I head to Roberts next week.

I'm curious about how Rourkes are able to build thier 953 in a lugless version. I spoke to someone at Roberts some months back and was told that its more difficult to work with 953 (via their usual fillet brazing) which is why they choose to lug their 953's.

I think Rourke TIG weld their frames. Perhaps, thats why they don't lug theirs?

Nervexprof, stenciling sounds like a better idea then decalling(not sure thats a word). Turaround wise, I'm not too concerned about it. It'll give me plenty of time to saave the money I need for the parts. I'm going to need all the time I can get.