rant: Another industry wants a Government hand out

downfader

So the UK computer games industry has written a letter to The Times bemoaning that they want some kind of tax break from the Government. Is it me or does industry that is making money often moan about their lack of it, and how they will have to send talent abroad, or move there themselves.

I'm getting sick of companies trying to scare people into radical and unecesary actions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 966776.ece

I think its time that the ONLY tax breaks are given to those who benefit everyone. Its computer games for crying out loud, its hardly neurosurgery or a cure for cancer. Its bad enough that top bankers and public servants are saying "oh but if you dont pay us this fortune, we'll go abroad" and yet are festooned with a cheshire grin as they tell their £6 p/h employees "if you dont like it, we'll easily find someone to fill your shoes"

Perhaps we as society should be saying the same to them, go abroad then. Naff off, someone will fill your shoes quick enough. And I'm more sure of that than the lowest paid jobs.

Greed. One of the lowest forms of human trait when it gets out of hand

End rant.

rake

good call. they seem to randomly select who they help.

iainf72

It's might only be "The games industry! but have you ever looked at how much the gaming market is actually worth?

Here's a question, if you can work anywhere but the tax regime is better in other countries, why would you remain in the UK?

Crapaud

iainf72 wrote:

... Here's a question, if you can work anywhere but the tax regime is better in other countries, why would you remain in the UK?

So why haven't they already gone? If it's so good abroad they should just bugger off instead if griping and begging for tax breaks and handouts.

rake

why not transfere they whole country somewhere cheaper.

iainf72

A lot of the games industry has moved to more favourable locations.

My point is more around, if the big shops did more, there would no doubt be a bunch of lower level employee's without jobs. What industry is going to step up to employ them?

The BBC had an article on it's website recently which showed 25% of income tax is paid by 10% of the people. And 10% of the total is paid for by 1%. If you start eroding that too much you leave a big big hole.

rake

thats only because 10% of the people have %90 of the wealth.
id love to be earning enough to be in the top tax bracket. if they dont like it why dont they get a 20k salary job.

downfader

Just because the games industry makes £400m a year in the UK (or whatever it is) doesnt mean they should dictate taxation. I mean, what else would an industry wish to dictate next? It is not their concern and they have every opportunity and right to do what they wish with their industry.

The fact of the matter is that industry leaders are trying to blackmail and scare people. That is not good busniness practice and will lead to a downturn when the public start deciding they no longer trust them.

MeddlE

A lot of the games industry is already located in Canada, Electronics Arts headquarters are there as are most of their developers. The Canadian government gives the industry tax breaks to tempt them to locate there, thereby creating jobs. And not only jobs at the games company, but also jobs at the various suppliers that they use, and that carries on down the chain.

If businesses do "Naff off" then it's not only the jobs that they provide that go with them, it can be towns, communities, and more.

Buckled_Rims

It's pointless anyhow, because most of the school leavers are studying for media and Xfactor studies, rather then Maths and physics needed for Games programmers.

rake

+1. theres nothing left anymore

Crapaud

MeddlE wrote:

... If businesses do "Naff off" then it's not only the jobs that they provide that go with them, it can be towns, communities, and more.

But why the games industry? It's private enterprise and they're making a good profit!

Their complaint seems to boil down to 'we're not making as much as others are abroad'. Well, boohoo. Let them go; they can take the bankers with them.

Industry is fond of telling employees that no-one's irreplaceable, well that goes for bosses and companies as well. It's a form of industriaql blackmail. Sod them!

MeddlE

Crapaud wrote:

Industry is fond of telling employees that no-one's irreplaceable, well that goes for bosses and companies as well. It's a form of industriaql blackmail. Sod them!

Bosses yes, companies no. Without companies you have no jobs. A country without any industry is bankrupt.

Frank the tank

I work for a multi-national. The part of the company I work for is up for sale, the potential bidders been whittled down to two, we who already do the task cost about £80/hour the other option (Czech rep) about £30/hour.

Only thing is they cannot actually manufacture any of the parts we make and have zero expertise in the field. Now for me it's a "no brainer" but the bean counters seem to be bending over backwards to facilitate transfer of our business.

Absolutely disgusting. :x :evil:

Crapaud

MeddlE wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

Industry is fond of telling employees that no-one's irreplaceable, well that goes for bosses and companies as well. It's a form of industriaql blackmail. Sod them!

Bosses yes, companies no. Without companies you have no jobs. A country without any industry is bankrupt.

Agreed, but if there's a gap in the market, left by them leaving, someone will come along and fill it.

Assuming that the games industry is deserving of tax breaks, which other industries are equally deserving? Where do you draw the line? Where does the parasitism end?

MeddlE

Crapaud wrote:

Assuming that the games industry is deserving of tax breaks, which other industries are equally deserving? Where do you draw the line? Where does the parasitism end?

Parasitism (actually a word?) is the wrong way of looking at it. It depends on the industry of course. I'm not saying that I agree that the games industry 'needs' the tax breaks but I certainly couldn't state that they didn't.

The games industry could potentially support art designers, packaging suppliers, the print industry, logistics to name but a few. Each one of those will support other companies. Each company is more jobs. It's a pyramid scheme.

As someone who has been out of work now for more than a year I fully support any efforts to keep jobs in this country.

downfader

MeddlE wrote:

Crapaud wrote:

Assuming that the games industry is deserving of tax breaks, which other industries are equally deserving? Where do you draw the line? Where does the parasitism end?

Parasitism (actually a word?) is the wrong way of looking at it. It depends on the industry of course. I'm not saying that I agree that the games industry 'needs' the tax breaks but I certainly couldn't state that they didn't.

The games industry could potentially support art designers, packaging suppliers, the print industry, logistics to name but a few. Each one of those will support other companies. Each company is more jobs. It's a pyramid scheme.

As someone who has been out of work now for more than a year I fully support any efforts to keep jobs in this country.

But will it though? The automotive industry took its share of tax breaks over the years didnt it? However they all seem to have moved production, and even R&D over to various parts of Asia.

MeddlE

downfader wrote:

But will it though? The automotive industry took its share of tax breaks over the years didnt it? However they all seem to have moved production, and even R&D over to various parts of Asia.

So are you saying that we shouldn't try and that we should just accept the country becoming bankrupt?

downfader

MeddlE wrote:

downfader wrote:

But will it though? The automotive industry took its share of tax breaks over the years didnt it? However they all seem to have moved production, and even R&D over to various parts of Asia.

So are you saying that we shouldn't try and that we should just accept the country becoming bankrupt?

You're misreading what I've written. I'm saying industry has a long, long history of saying one thing and doing another in the name of profit. The existance is perfectly stable at present regardless of the tax situation, they are making profit and blackmailing government

MeddlE

It was a genuine question and not a misreading.

With the motor industry the fact that manufacturing is involved makes it almost inevitable that it will move to wherever it is cheaper to produce the goods. The machinery can be packed up and shipped to whatever country buys it and production start up again at a cheaper rate. The buying public wont always fall for that though, for example Rover.

With the games industry there is no manufacturing in a physical sense so it would seem to be a different prospect. It is though a very profitable business, not without financial risk, and would be a shame to lose it. Big profits mean big tax bills, and help the UK economy.

Crapaud

MeddlE wrote:

... Parasitism (actually a word?) is the wrong way of looking at it. It depends on the industry of course. I'm not saying that I agree that the games industry 'needs' the tax breaks but I certainly couldn't state that they didn't. ...

It's exactly the right way of looking at it. It's not a struggling industry; it's making a profit. Why should the taxpayer be - effectvely - subsidising private businesses? It's scaremongering and blackmail, pure and simple.

MeddlE wrote:

... The games industry could potentially support art designers, packaging suppliers, the print industry, logistics to name but a few. Each one of those will support other companies. Each company is more jobs. It's a pyramid scheme. ...

Again, assuming that they get a tax break, where's this extra money going to go? To the directors, the shareholders (bosses again), the employees, will they pass it on to their suppliers (assuming that they're in the UK, and there's no guarantee that they are or will remain here)? If they do, or moved, any part of their business offshore they'd complain that it's goverment interfering in private business decisions if the government censured them for it. They can't, but want to, have it both ways. If they want taxpayers money, industrialise them!

MeddlE wrote:

... As someone who has been out of work now for more than a year I fully support any efforts to keep jobs in this country.

Sorry to hear that. I've been unemployed twice now - it's not fun. Funnelling goverment money into an already profitable business isn't the answer though.

downfader

MeddlE wrote:

It was a genuine question and not a misreading.

With the motor industry the fact that manufacturing is involved makes it almost inevitable that it will move to wherever it is cheaper to produce the goods. The machinery can be packed up and shipped to whatever country buys it and production start up again at a cheaper rate. The buying public wont always fall for that though, for example Rover.

With the games industry there is no manufacturing in a physical sense so it would seem to be a different prospect. It is though a very profitable business, not without financial risk, and would be a shame to lose it. Big profits mean big tax bills, and help the UK economy.

I concede you make a good point about Rover. However Rover was failing far into the 1980s iirc with management issues. The customer however felt that the brand was damaged and that dissuaded buyers.

I think I can personally (and this is only my opinion) see that developers and designers could shift to the far east for two reasons. Cost of living is cheaper, and hence as a result wages are lower. A developer can be employed on a much lower salary, the same happened in the animation business in the 90s. Secondly people question their employers less, different working conditions and H&S which would never happen here.

(sorry, been watching crocodile dundee so I'm a bit distracted )

rake

rake wrote:

why not transfere they whole country somewhere cheaper.

?

OffTheBackAdam

Rover was a basket case for years, badly run, with a management unwilling to face down the unions.
Churned out some good cars, that were so shoddily made, it was unbelieveable.
It only got some decent cars when it was privatised.
Then when the realism set in that it couldn't compete in the real world, as a volume car manufacturer, the bloody goverment did it's usual job of gerrymandering, threw a stack of money at it and sold it to the wrong lot, who promptly sucked it dry and the husk's now in Chinese hands.

The Chingford Skinhead

iainf72 wrote:

A lot of the games industry has moved to more favourable locations.

My point is more around, if the big shops did more, there would no doubt be a bunch of lower level employee's without jobs. What industry is going to step up to employ them?

The BBC had an article on it's website recently which showed 25% of income tax is paid by 10% of the people. And 10% of the total is paid for by 1%. If you start eroding that too much you leave a big big hole.

That may be true, but it is also a fact that the bottom 10% of taxpayers in the UK pay more in tax and give more in charitable donations AS A PROPORTION of thier total income than the top 10% of taxpayers. So yes, Bono may well give far more than me, but as a proportion of what he can afford to give I'd be willing to bet I give more.

Frankly i am sick of people threatening to leave. If you want to go then F-ing go and stop whining about it. The banking industry saying all the talent would go - that would be the same talent that got us into this mess. The same talent at Lloyds (( think it was) that laid of 350 staff to save £2m - that's 350 families that had a crap christmas- and yet happily gave £2m as a bonus to a single individual. :roll:

The Chingford Skinhead

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

Rover was a basket case for years, badly run, with a management unwilling to face down the unions.
Churned out some good cars, that were so shoddily made, it was unbelieveable.
It only got some decent cars when it was privatised.
Then when the realism set in that it couldn't compete in the real world, as a volume car manufacturer, the bloody goverment did it's usual job of gerrymandering, threw a stack of money at it and sold it to the wrong lot, who promptly sucked it dry and the husk's now in Chinese hands.

The British car making industry was not destroyed by unions, contrary to popular opinion. It did very well for many years but the owners drew all the profits out rather than reinvesting - as they did in Japan. Then the industry fell behind and the workers / unions got upset and all of the blame. There used to be separate canteens and bathrooms for management and staff and you wonder why the workers got annoyed. Sheesh