A death that could have been prevented

MadammeMarie

This p***ed me off so much! A young woman dead because some w****r behind the wheel of a lorry used the advance box. Oh, yes, but it was the cyclists fault apparently!! :x :evil:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23788071-marias-death-could-have-been-prevented-says-boyfriend-of-cyclist-killed-by-lorry.do

whyamihere

This is why you don't filter up the left of lorries...

The driver shouldn't have been in the ASL, nobody's going to disagree with that, but you can't absolve the cyclist of all blame in these situations. A great shame that she didn't learn it sooner and a life was lost.

downfader

I understand your anger MM at the driver for being in the ASL, but I think this is a case of inexperience (and I left a comment - doubt it will appear as its too rational). They may well have ridden all the way down a lane and thought it safe. I said in my comment that I do think this needs to be addressed in a national advert.

Slimbods

Shouldn't the large vehicle be responsible for the danger it presents? Why does it have a blind spot that puts people at danger? Isn't that what we need to fix here rather than blame the vulnerable who have paid for the mistake with their lives?

bails87

Yes and no. The blind spots shouldn't be there, but if they are then cyclists will have to be aware of that and act accordingly.

We [dons Daily Mail hat] pay our council tax and expect roads to be gritted, so there 'shouldn't' be any ice, but that doesn't mean you should be riding/driving around as normal at the moment.

Rich158

whyamihere wrote:

This is why you don't filter up the left of lorries...

The driver shouldn't have been in the ASL, nobody's going to disagree with that, but you can't absolve the cyclist of all blame in these situations. A great shame that she didn't learn it sooner and a life was lost.

+1

I would go so far as to say that by filtering up the inside of any lorry/bus/large van, that's indicating to turn left the cyclist plays a large part in their own demise. Personally I never do it, whether the vehicle is turning left or not. It doesn't take a huge amount of experience to know that if you're in an incident with a large vehicle you'll come off worse.

Aidy

I dunno, if you're familiar with the timing of the lights, you could reasonably expect to be able to filter up the left and make it ito the ASL before the lights changed (thus placing you at the front prior to the point where any traffic should start moving).

I'd kind of argue that by stopping in the cycle box, the lorry driver is endangering life.

Also, I've been in situations before where lorries (and busses, and taxis, and cars...) attempt to overtake me approaching lights, and fail miserably (yes, I'm in primary) - meaning I have to filter up the inside.

Rich158

Aidy wrote:

I dunno, if you're familiar with the timing of the lights, you could reasonably expect to be able to filter up the left and make it ito the ASL before the lights changed (thus placing you at the front prior to the point where any traffic should start moving).

I'd kind of argue that by stopping in the cycle box, the lorry driver is endangering life.

Also, I've been in situations before where lorries (and busses, and taxis, and cars...) attempt to overtake me approaching lights, and fail miserably (yes, I'm in primary) - meaning I have to filter up the inside.

No you don't you choose to, if I'm in a similar situation I'll hold back to let the lorry past. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for my own safety and that starts with not placing myself in a dangerous situation.

sarajoy

Sadly lanes are all down the left and they give an impression of "here is where I'm supposed to be, I can't go wrong, it must be safe or it wouldn't be there".

Victim: Maria Fernandez, 24, was knocked off her bike in Holborn Circus after the refuse lorry encroached on a green “bike box” zone designed to protect cyclists at traffic lights

"a green “bike box” zone designed to protect cyclists at traffic lights"
Well, yes, only if everyone follows the rules.

I wonder how easily education about blind spots and filtering can be spread when there's no requirement for cyclists to have to have taken any kind of formalised test. I'm not calling for one - but how else can we make sure everyone knows and understands the dangers?

Rich158

Slimbods wrote:

Shouldn't the large vehicle be responsible for the danger it presents? Why does it have a blind spot that puts people at danger? Isn't that what we need to fix here rather than blame the vulnerable who have paid for the mistake with their lives?

Every vehicle has blind spots, they're pretty much impossible to get rid of. In fact most cars have about 6-8 blind spots, and unless you change the fundamental design of the user (ie us) to have perfect 360 degree vision they'll remain. The real issue is that we are all responsible for our own safety and shouldn't put ourselves in a dangerous situation imho

Aidy

Rich158 wrote:

Aidy wrote:

Also, I've been in situations before where lorries (and busses, and taxis, and cars...) attempt to overtake me approaching lights, and fail miserably (yes, I'm in primary) - meaning I have to filter up the inside.

No you don't you choose to, if I'm in a similar situation I'll hold back to let the lorry past. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for my own safety and that starts with not placing myself in a dangerous situation.

I can only hold back and let them past if they give me enough space to do so.
And in which case, I will, then I'll filter past on the right.

When they're pulling alongside me and stopping (or worse, moving into the side of me, and stopping), holding back will still put you alongside them, and directly in their blind spot.

Rich158

I have to say I don't filter past lorries unless there's at least 2/3 cars in front of them that will allow me to get completely clear, and I know I have to time to do so. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had the situation you describe happen to me

MadammeMarie

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! :x

I can't believe the comments I see here, in a CYCLING BOARD!!!! What the hell? It's like reading the Daily f***iing Mail!!!!

It was the lorry driver who did the wrong thing here. HE stopped in the box. HE put her and all cyclists lives in danger. HE should have at least been fined, have his f***ing license removed and made to re-take the driving test and learn the f***ing Higway Code. Yes, that code that the "anti-cycling brigade" keeps throwing at us at any opportunity!

The fact that this driver was not punished, is typical "car mentality", which was discussed in this board not long ago.

If she had been able to stop at the front of the lorry, she would still be alive. Being inexperienced or wrong guessing is not ILLEGAL!! :x :evil:

MadammeMarie

And more, if motorists are not fined for stopping inside these boxes, then they might as well not exist. It's another of those "cosmetic meassures" that makes politicians look good, but in reality, they are useless!

shouldbeinbed

Aidy wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

Aidy wrote:

Also, I've been in situations before where lorries (and busses, and taxis, and cars...) attempt to overtake me approaching lights, and fail miserably (yes, I'm in primary) - meaning I have to filter up the inside.

No you don't you choose to, if I'm in a similar situation I'll hold back to let the lorry past. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for my own safety and that starts with not placing myself in a dangerous situation.

I can only hold back and let them past if they give me enough space to do so.
And in which case, I will, then I'll filter past on the right.

When they're pulling alongside me and stopping (or worse, moving into the side of me, and stopping), holding back will still put you alongside them, and directly in their blind spot.

ok fair point and undoubtedly you are morally and probably legally in the right., but it's still tons of metal vs a few stone of squashy you. If this happens to me (rarely TBH) I have got off and have pshed my bike on the pavement or stood on the kerb right against the barriers and hung back from the lorry as it moved off. I'd rather cede my right of way than be a self righteous corpse.

The world isn't perfect and you owe it to yourself to make it as safe as you can.

As for the ASL - it's only a few feet in front of the driver who is a good 10 feet high and a few feet back from his windscreen behind the dashboard - they're not safe if the first vehicle has a high and restricted driving position.

moonio

I'm sorry but how exactly is a person expected to know the intricacies of lorry blind spots and the position of the wheels when turning left etc when they are probably more used to driving cars and cycling where adequate space, caution and visibility is the norm?

Porgy

MadammeMarie wrote:

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! :x

I can't believe the comments I see here, in a CYCLING BOARD!!!! What the hell? It's like reading the Daily f***iing Mail!!!!
:

I'm glad you've said that - i thought it was just me.

I've stopped posting on this subject it winds me up so much.

Porgy

Slimbods wrote:

Shouldn't the large vehicle be responsible for the danger it presents? Why does it have a blind spot that puts people at danger? Isn't that what we need to fix here rather than blame the vulnerable who have paid for the mistake with their lives?

+1

Porgy

It seems to me that this problem can be easily fixed which is why each and every death that occurs is an appalling tragedy above and beyond purely a personal nature.

Rich158

moonio wrote:

I'm sorry but how exactly is a person expected to know the intricacies of lorry blind spots and the position of the wheels when turning left etc when they are probably more used to driving cars and cycling where adequate space, caution and visibility is the norm?

So you've never watched a lorry turning left then and watched how they tend to cut across the corner, or ever given one a bit more space on a roundabout. As far as I'm concerned it's far safer to assume you're in a blind spot and can't be seen. Likewise I always assume that the lorry might be turning left and hold back, the position of the wheels is irrelevant. After all my life is far more valuable to me than the few seconds or minutes I'd save by filtering alongside them in order to sit at the front of the queue.

Porgy

Rich158 wrote:

Slimbods wrote:

Shouldn't the large vehicle be responsible for the danger it presents? Why does it have a blind spot that puts people at danger? Isn't that what we need to fix here rather than blame the vulnerable who have paid for the mistake with their lives?

Every vehicle has blind spots, they're pretty much impossible to get rid of. In fact most cars have about 6-8 blind spots, and unless you change the fundamental design of the user (ie us) to have perfect 360 degree vision they'll remain. The real issue is that we are all responsible for our own safety and shouldn't put ourselves in a dangerous situation imho

just becasue all vehicles have blind spots doesn't mean that the far more significant blind spots (and unnecessary?) on HGVs etc. cannot be treated as a special case. They are after all the single biggest killer of cyclists.

Rich158

Porgy wrote:

MadammeMarie wrote:

NO, NO, NO, NO!!! :x

I can't believe the comments I see here, in a CYCLING BOARD!!!! What the hell? It's like reading the Daily f***iing Mail!!!!
:

I'm glad you've said that - i thought it was just me.

I've stopped posting on this subject it winds me up so much.

The evangelical view of a few people who seem to have the view that a cyclist can never be wrong is exactly why I'm posting on this subject. Vehicle design isn't perfect and never will be, but can it be made better, generally, yes.

However I strongly believe that everyone has a responsibility not to put themselves in a dangerous position, and that if they do they are partly responsible for the consequences. To simply blame drivers when I see far more instances of piss poor cycling on a daily basis really annoys me. We should put our own house in order before we start castigating everyone else

lae

^ I think any person with some basic road sense can figure out that if you can't see a mirror, the driver can't see you. If you've ever been in a lorry cab you'll realise how little you can see - it's very VERY easy to 'sneak up' on a lorry in a car, let alone on a bike.

I do agree that the lorry shouldn't have stopped in the ASL, and that lorries should have cameras or whatever so that they have better visibility.

But to be honest, I also think that nobody on a bike should even think about going near one. It's all well and good being righteous but in the end, a lorry is several tons of metal with very poor visibility, and you have to treat it with respect and give it the space it needs. You also have to recognise that a lorry has enormous blind spots, and that if you cycle in these (even if you are technically in the right) you're risking your life. ASL, cycle lane etc or not, going near any large vehicle is very dangerous

Similar thing on tight roundabouts. Often a lorry will want to turn left at the roundabout, but because it's so long it will go in the right-hand approach and cut across the left-hand lane. You could argue that you've got the right to drive up the left-hand lane, but in practice, you have to wait for the lorry.

Porgy

Rich158 wrote:

The evangelical view of a few people who seem to have the view that a cyclist can never be wrong is exactly why I'm posting on this subject. Vehicle design isn't perfect and never will be, but can it be made better, generally, yes.

However I strongly believe that everyone has a responsibility not to put themselves in a dangerous position, and that if they do they are partly responsible for the consequences. To simply blame drivers when I see far more instances of wee-wee poor cycling on a daily basis really annoys me. We should put our own house in order before we start castigating everyone else

you're not completely wrong - but to keep labouring this point on a forum full of responsible and experienced cyclists just seems ultimately to be an insult to those who have died.

We all put ourselves in bad situations from time to time - poor judgement calls, maybe we're ahving an off day - but to die for it!! - seems excessive.

your argument seems to be that it doesn't matter how dangerous a vehicle is - if it is allowed on the road - we must all just creep around like little mice and when one of us accidentally makes a mistake and gets killed - we all go - "shouldn;t have done that should you".

I have close calls with large vehciles quite often - almost always when they turn left alongside me. Now I wasn't in their blindspot when they passed me - but they still failed to take me into account...and then sudenly i am in theior blind spot. Your line offers those people a get out of jail free card for any such "accidents". But I know what your response would be on these boards - you and others - and that's why responses like yours make my spine crawl.

lost_in_thought

It's a great shame.

However, I have to agree with whyamihere - that's why you steer well clear of lorries. It's not worth putting yourself in danger by filtering. If one's passed me and they're likely to do so again, I'll wait behind them at lights. I've had HGV drivers thank me for doing so.

Also, I don't really understand this obsession with getting to the front. If the light has just changed red, sure, filter, but if traffic's about to start moving, why not wait? I don't think you make yourself any safer by being at the front, and certainly not by pushing your way there.

Even when I was learning to drive my instructor told me that it's a bad idea to be alongside a turning lorry, they move unpredictably (to someone who can't drive one) and can swing out when you're not expecting them to. And that was in a car, heck, I go nowhere near them on a bike unless I can be 100% sure I'll get well clear.

Cyclists have to take responsibility for their own safety. We're probably the most vulnerable road users and should remember that.

lost_in_thought

Porgy wrote:

I have close calls with large vehciles quite often - almost always when they turn left alongside me. Now I wasn't in their blindspot when they passed me - but they still failed to take me into account...and then sudenly i am in theior blind spot. Your line offers those people a get out of jail free card for any such "accidents". But I know what your response would be on these boards - you and others - and that's why responses like yours make my spine crawl.

If a long vehicle passes me, I'd far rather hit the brakes and stay behind it than trundle up the inside of it. If you put yourself in their blind spot, you have to take some of the responsibility.

Someone on here said once 'it's no good being right and dead'. I agree with them.

Porgy

lost_in_thought wrote:

by filtering. If one's passed me and they're likely to do so again, I'll wait behind them at lights. I've had HGV drivers thank me for doing so.

Also, I don't really understand this obsession with getting to the front. If the light has just changed red, sure, filter, but if traffic's about to start moving, why not wait? I don't think you make yourself any safer by being at the front, and certainly not by pushing your way there.
.

If only it was that simple.

I have found no solution yet to the problem of being overtaken at speed by a large vehicle who then proceeds to turn left having not yet completely passed.

Even stopping may not save you.

Still, never mind, it's only life. Over-rated in my opinion.

lost_in_thought

Porgy wrote:

If only it was that simple.

I have found no solution yet to the problem of being overtaken at speed by a large vehicle who then proceeds to turn left having not yet completely passed.

Even stopping may not save you.

I think it's pretty simple...

I've had one near miss with a left-turning lorry, I was in the ASL, it stopped alongside me then turned left on green with no indication. It crushed my bike against those oh-so-helpful railings, and I still don't know how but I scrambled over the railings to safety. I don't intend to put myself in that position again.

I think stopping is your best option. If a large vehicle, ie one I don't want to be on the inside of, is overtaking me or trying to, I'll slow down so it's well away from me ASAP, thereby avoiding the situation altogether.

Also, if I see a left indicator come on on a vehicle I am alongside, I'll hit the brakes until I'm behind it. I'd rather not rely on the driver's judgement.

prj45

MadammeMarie wrote:

HE stopped in the box

You HAVE to stop int he box if the light goes red before you've crossed the line a the front of it, but have already crossed the first line.

Don't know if this is what happened here, but it is NOT illegal to stop in an ASL box in a motorised vehicle; in fact it's illegal NOT to in some circumstances.

shouldbeinbed

Porgy wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

The evangelical view of a few people who seem to have the view that a cyclist can never be wrong is exactly why I'm posting on this subject. Vehicle design isn't perfect and never will be, but can it be made better, generally, yes.

However I strongly believe that everyone has a responsibility not to put themselves in a dangerous position, and that if they do they are partly responsible for the consequences. To simply blame drivers when I see far more instances of wee-wee poor cycling on a daily basis really annoys me. We should put our own house in order before we start castigating everyone else

you're not completely wrong - but to keep labouring this point on a forum full of responsible and experienced cyclists just seems ultimately to be an insult to those who have died.

easy tiger, not all cyclists on here are experienced (or responsible ) and lets remember this is a world wide web forum accessible by anyone on the planet with an internet connection.

Should we bite our lips or lie to ourselves and others about the rights and responsibilities on both sides of any accident or near miss?
It isn't giving the lorry driver a get out of jail free card, (police accident investigstion is pretty sophisticated nowadays, I don't think they take bike forum opinions into account just yet) but it is being realistic enough to accept that in the Grim Reapers Top Trumps set, a big metal lorry beats a little squidgy cyclist in every single category so it's not a competition any sensible cyclist shoud choose to get into or stay in if forced on them.

I'm sure the bereaved spend an awful lot of time poring over who could have done what differently and that our opinions don't amount to anything at all compared to their own thoughts in the wee small hours. If we were as blindly cyclista to be saying: its never our fault, blame the evil lorry driver then we are more like the Daily Mail not less, because we're one eyed, bigoted and unwlling or unable to accept that there may well be a second side to the argument with at least some validity.

Cyclist in ASL well before HGV driver arrives behind but gets run over and killed anyway is a very different situation to cyclist who filters up from beside / behind lorry driver and sits there hoping that the lorry driver: a) can actually see them in their imperfectly designed lorry and b) gives more of a sh1t for the cyclists safety that the cyclist does.

I'm with Rich et al and will happily make your spine crawl every single time this comes up because just maybe having a less rose tinted view of my fellow cyclists and not stifling debate behind sycophantic notions of the cycling fraternity might save the legs or life of one of the tens of millions of people that can view this that don't have your or my or many other regular posters on here experience and seasoning on a bike.

(Edit - Typo corrected)

MadammeMarie

prj45 wrote:

You HAVE to stop int he box if the light goes red before you've crossed the line a the front of it, but have already crossed the first line.

Before the lights go red, they go yellow, that's when you slow down, enough time to see the damn box and stop behind the line.

prj45 wrote:

Don't know if this is what happened here, but it is NOT illegal to stop in an ASL box in a motorised vehicle; in fact it's illegal NOT to in some circumstances.

It SHOULD be illegal. For the safety of all cyclists, it has to be enforced.