Cycling Weekly have lost the plot .........

Cunobelin

The point we are missing is a more subtle one, beyond the argument over the colour of the lights.

Why have the blue lights (anecdotally or not) proved to be more effective?

Is it because so many drivers will react differently to a Police Officer on a bike than any other cyclist?

That is the issue..............

spen666

scwxx77 wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Can anyone point me to the relevant bit of legislation that they say outlaws these lights?

It's on wikipedia, it must be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_ ... ed_Kingdom

Restrictions on fitting blue warning beacons, special warning lamps and similar devices
16. No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with-


(a) a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or


(b) a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_3.htm

i'm not sure they are blue warning beacons. They are lights not beacons


I'm not sure these lights are covered by those regulations

I would challenge it in court if I was given a FPN

Also lights are fitted to bag not to bike inletter in CW

rake

what about a black domed helmet.

Cunobelin

I can't find a reference, but....

I remember an article ina cycle mag inthe 80's where a cyclist had performed an experiment.

Cycling on the same road at the same time each day. He wore ordinary clothing, hi viz cycle clothing and a Police Uniform.

For some reason he had less close overtakes, less vehicles puling out and generaly more respect in the latter despite it being far less visible than the hi viz.

ballspondroad

I seem to remember that the week after the original blue lights letter CW published one pointing out it was illegal. Perhaps they are trying to go all controversial on us.

Stone Glider

It would appear that "Robbie" from StAlbans is seeking to obtain some advantage from being (mis)taken for a member of the emergency services. This is against the law. It also, were it widely adopted, would degrade the utility of flashing bliue lights for the emegency services. Not a desireable outcome IMO.

As a motorist, the sight of flashing red lights at night signal to me the unequivocal presence of cyclists. This form of "brand identity" is valuable and risks dilution if cyclists opt for a free-for-all/christmas tree approach to lighting. It is hard enough out there without introducing confusion for some dubious benefit.

Ollieda

I agree with most people on here that using blue lights on your bike is something you shouldn't be doing as it should be reserved for emergency services and as said before it is probably more effective as the average driver might think it's an emergency services vehicle and people tend to become much kinder drivers when theres a copper about!

Attaching it to your bike is clearly illegal under the The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 although there is question as to what would happen if it was attached to you as you are not a person although this would probably be classed as impersonating a police officer....whilst police officers themselves don't actually wear blue flashing lights, the reasonable driver would assume police presence having seen the light (hence it works in the first place as they give you so much room thinking your a police officer!)

As for the argument of "chavs in their crap attempt at zooped up cars have blue lights and they don't get stopped." Just because the majority of them don't get stopped doesn't mean its right....supposedly 70% of rapes don't get reported, does that make them ok?

There are plenty of ways to be seen better, hi viz clothing, flashing red lights, if you really want to you can get that light that was advertised a while back that shines a cycle lane image on the road behind you!

mercsport

I knew when I looked in on 'Cake Stop' there's always something going on here !

I must admit that I tend to side with 'Dilemna' on this, surprisingly, contentious issue. A bit surprised at some of you giving him a hard time for pointing out the 'obvious'. And, so far as CW losing the plot, I stopped buying it upon the 'second coming' of the sainted Lance.

But, just to add to the stew in ferment here, I bought a rear light earlier this year which I have yet to see bettered. I don't know its make or model as it was an off the cuff purchase from the LBS for my partner. It's a horizontally inclined led jobby, tiny, and stuck on the seatpost, and comprises a red led either side of a really bright WHITE led.

On the return from our informal club dinner last week, in the grey gloom of our twilight, I dropped back a long way and noticed that by far the most noticeable rear light - BY FAR - amongst the many flashing and static reds of the group was my partner's alternate flashing red-red-WHITE. Intense ! I feel she could have been as far in front of the group as I was behind, and still would have been more noticeable than any within the group.

The Chingford Skinhead

In my experience wearing hi-viz and lit up like a Christmas tree makes no difference to the average driver as even in daylight I am regularly passed within inches. I didn’t get the impression that the CW letter writer was a ninja cyclist either. What he or she had discovered was that blue lights encouraged motorists to adhere to the ADVICE in the Highway Code on passing cyclists. Good for him.

Like RLJing and pavement cycling the infringements in the law are generally responses to the far more dangerous infringements to safety caused by motorists not following the law. Rather than stopping cyclists with blue lights the police should be stopping motorists who don’t give cyclists enough room.

Oh, what about the impact of drivers getting used to blue lights? Well, the police might want to address that AFTER they’ve done something about the driving standards that result in 2,500 deaths and 28,000 serious injuries each year. You’ll never eliminate all collisions but when you get motorists to drive responsibly you’ll have my full backing to address cyclists who RLJ or ride on pavements as their legitimate reason for doing so will have been removed. Current driving standards are shocking but the police don't seem in the least bit interested.

Mithras, you asked why we wouldn’t then add blue lights to our cars. I tend to find that in my car I’m given more consideration by other motorists and I’m not a vulnerable road user due to the ton of metal and airbags protecting me.

The Chingford Skinhead

Cunobelin wrote:

The point we are missing is a more subtle one, beyond the argument over the colour of the lights.

Why have the blue lights (anecdotally or not) proved to be more effective?

Is it because so many drivers will react differently to a Police Officer on a bike than any other cyclist?

That is the issue..............

Exactly. Motorist know the rules of the road, they know they should give space and watch out for bikes but they are only willing to do so when there is a risk of being pulled up if they don't. Pehrhaps there is a (rather obvious) lesson for the police here if they want to reduce dangerous driving. Get out there and be seen. That includes getting out there on bikes with helmet cams as you'll be able to interact with the public as bobbies on the beat used to - and thus go some way to repairing the damage to your relationship with the public that has occured since bobbies were reduced and policing by car became the norm.

hells

Blue flashing ights are for emergency services only. If they become common place on normal cyclists its only going to make our job harder. People will completly ignore our cycle response paramedics and police officers thinking they are just another twat on a bike with blue flashing lights that think they can RLJ and potentially put our cycle responders in danger as a result. It will cause us delays in getting to our patients resulting in a poorer prognosis, even more so if it's at a dangerous address or with someone being aggressive on scene and we have to wait for the police as well before entering. Think of the impact of your actions before you consider doing this. I imagine when it gets common enough to cause us problems the police will begin to crack down on it.

As for saying the police should have a more visual presence like they used to that requires more police officers and more money. They have had their budget reduced for next year along with all public services and armed forces so how exactly do you suggest they do that? Also a bobby in a car is more able to get to more incidents covering a larger area and quicker than a bobby on foot. They have always arrived quickly when I have requested them so far.

STEFANOS4784

hells wrote:

Blue flashing ights are for emergency services only. If they become common place on normal cyclists its only going to make our job harder. People will completly ignore our cycle response paramedics and police officers thinking they are just another fool on a bike with blue flashing lights that think they can RLJ and potentially put our cycle responders in danger as a result. It will cause us delays in getting to our patients resulting in a poorer prognosis, even more so if it's at a dangerous address or with someone being aggressive on scene and we have to wait for the police as well before entering. Think of the impact of your actions before you consider doing this. I imagine when it gets common enough to cause us problems the police will begin to crack down on it.

As for saying the police should have a more visual presence like they used to that requires more police officers and more money. They have had their budget reduced for next year along with all public services and armed forces so how exactly do you suggest they do that? Also a bobby in a car is more able to get to more incidents covering a larger area and quicker than a bobby on foot. They have always arrived quickly when I have requested them so far.

Jobsworth



Only joking This is the best explenation so far IMO 8)

The Chingford Skinhead

Hells - if drivers can only drive responsibly when they see a blue flashing light then it is no surprise that vulnerable road users may use them. If it becomes commonplace and drivers stop driving responsibly then the police should enforce the law with regard to dangerous driving (a common cause for the need of emergency services and an expensive drain on our taxes) but I suspect they'll go for the easy option and enforce against the cyclist (who isn't endangering others but merely trying to protect themself).

As for police presence - if you asked most taxpayers, that is one of the few things they would be prepared to pay for.The trust and respect between the police and the public has fallen apart in recent decades and needs to be urgently addressed. Those who habitually break the law (from burgulars, sexual offenders to motorists and yes, cyclists) know full well that the chances of being caught are slim while the public - those affected by the law breaking - believe that they will either be failed by the police or the "justice" system.

hells

I'm not saying it's ok for drivers to drive the way they do. IMO most drivers are considerate. I cycle in London to and from work daily and most drivers pass me without incident, people only remember the bad ones who come to close and not the previous 20 or so who passed properly. I don't know how many of police calls are made up from RTCs but they dont make up a large percentage of ours and usually are only minor often with only basic observations needing to be done and often without the need to transport to hospital. Car v cyclist being the rarer type of RTC.

The very last thing I want is to be sent to the aid of one of my colleuages from the cycle response unit or a police cycle responder who has been involved in an RTC whilst repsonding to an emergency call, due to the driver ignoring them thinking they were a normal cyclist despite the warning lights. This is something I feel is becoming more likley as more cyclists illegally use flashing blues on their bikes. It's also incrediby frustrating being held up by traffic that fails to notice you or just dosnt care when you are responding to a call, even more so when you have a seriously ill or dying person you are taking care of. Again delays will ioncrease if blue flashing lights become more frequent. What are you going to do next, install sirens because you feel it will make you safer?

The police are given a very unfair reputation. They do a very hard job they have to be both the good guys and the bad guys, unlike us and the fire brigade. They are often given abuse purely becuase they are a police officer. Every officer I have met so far has genuinely wanted to help people and make a difference, that is the reason they joined. they are human there is only so much they can do with the resources they have and the legislation and rules they must follow and they cant be everywhere at once.

Taxpayers may support and be willing to pay for more police however that is a decision for politicians and one they are unlikely to make.

In my opinion cyclists using blue flashing lights should have them confiscated and then charged with impersonating a police officer.

bails87

But what if the light is attached to the rider, not the vehicle? The traffic law isn't being broken then is it? And impersonating a police officer? That's a bit tenuous, surely it's 'impersonating a police car', they could just as easily be impersonating a fire engine!
Or it could just be someone who doesn't want to be killed on the roads?

singlespeedexplosif

flashing lights are a joke whatever colour, but hey, back to the OP....Cycling Weakly lost the plot a long time ago, they're still advertising for Dave Hinde ffs...

Wooliferkins

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

flashing lights are a joke whatever colour, but hey, back to the OP....Cycling Weakly lost the plot a long time ago, they're still advertising for Dave Hinde ffs...

CW is not known as "The Comic" by chance

da goose

Lets sum this one up ...in my neck of the woods I know a few drivers who would Love to hit/knock you off the road if you did look like the old bill! Nobody thought of that one?
If it was a car then a nice section 59 notice works a treat I find with the younger motorists (thats boy racers then albeit some are in there 40`s???) not so easy with the two wheelers though.
(Section 59 means police can seize the car and it costs a few quid for owner to get it back/pay storage at garage compound charges etc...it also stays for 12 months which is a great as it tends to make a few drivers think)
Road safety has a serious side for all of us so perhaps someone who knows/sees this flashing blue wonder needs a quiet word ......
Nice.

bails87

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, it highlights a very important point. Clearly, a lot of drivers don't think that the way they treat a 'civilian' cyclist is acceptable. Or they personally feel it's acceptable, but they know it would be frowned upon by the law (much like speeding).

If he was using a blue light to make cars move out of his way and RLJ, that's a very different situation to what's happening. Where some drivers are fully aware that the way they (some, not all drivers) treat cyclists is wrong, but they know they'll get away with it. If the blue light does nothing but make a motorist give an extra foot when overtaking, it may well keep a few more blue-lighted vehicles off the road.

John Stevenson

bails87 wrote:

But what if the light is attached to the rider, not the vehicle? The traffic law isn't being broken then is it?

Depends on exactly how it's phrased, and also on how a magistrate chooses to interpret it. Even if it's not phrased broadly enough to 'catch' a bike and rider, it could still be interpreted to mean that bike + rider = vehicle.

bails87

So is a blue light on the cyclist, not the bike, another one of those unknowns in cycling like 'is a bike a reasonable accompaniment on a footpath'?

I'm not suggesting anyone does it by the way, just pointing out that it shows drivers are often aware they're doing something wrong. So perhaps all the talk of driver education to improve road safety is misguided: drivers already know what they should be doing, they just choose not too because they believe they'll get away with it.....?