Cheap far East TI or expensive USA?

Moaner

Are expensive Ti frames from the USA any better than the relatively cheap ones coming from China etc?

I've noticed that the welds are often - but not always - neater. Is that it or is there more?

Would be especially like views from people who've practical experience of both.

Monty Dog

The biggest difference from the likes of a Moots, Lynskey or Seven is the fact that they use butted or manipulated tubes and sometimes 6/4 ti which is stronger, therefore thinner, lighter tubes.
I have both a 6/4 titanium/carbon framefrom Italy and a 3/2.5 frame from China - the first is considerably lighter and better riding as a race bike and the Chinese frame a lot heavier and more flexible - but as a cross / offroad bike it's very comfortable.
In terms of weld-beads - the finer beads might take longer, but not necessarily strength - but are an indication of a skillful welder and someone likely to take care with preparation which is the most important aspect for welding ti - there is absolutely no reason to suggest that Chinese welders aren't equally a skillful.
I'd go for the former if it truly was a one-off, special purchase - particularly a custom build, whereas if your just looking for a good value bike, you might be better served by one of the many decent frames from the far east e.g. Sabbath, Enigma

redddraggon

Planet X Ti made by Lynksey in the US, and cheaper than the likes of the Far East Sabbaths.

Scrumple

redddraggon wrote:

Planet X Ti made by Lynksey in the US, and cheaper than the likes of the Far East Sabbaths.

But made of the same grade of ti and of no discernable improvement. My Sabbath has 6/4 headtube and replaceable drop out. The PX is 3/2.5 all the way.
Sabbath is better, therefore....?

Garry H

Ckeck out Justin Burls

redddraggon

Scrumple wrote:

But made of the same grade of ti and of no discernable improvement. My Sabbath has 6/4 headtube and replaceable drop out. The PX is 3/2.5 all the way.
Sabbath is better, therefore....?

Why is 6/4 a better frame than 3/2.5 for a bike? it's not, it's just more expensive.

No amateur materials science please.

Scrumple

Amatuer would be arguing with a question, and making out it was a statement!

Spot the ?

I was just debating. You bite too easily.

gabriel959

redddraggon wrote:

Planet X Ti made by Lynksey in the US, and cheaper than the likes of the Far East Sabbaths.

Lynkskey have had frame failures in the past. Sabbath none.

Some of the Sabbaths have also got 6/4 headtubes and drop outs.

Scrumple

Shall we just have a fight?

Or a drag race???

Scrumple

Shimano or Campagnolo?

Which would be best with ti ?

gabriel959

I think those Planet X are unrivalled value at the moment though so not knocking them but they are not the be and end all of Ti frames. I also don't like their polished look but for £800 is amazing and much better than a bottom range carbon frame.

Moaner

Interesting replies, thanks.
I'm planning a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. That's why I was asking is 'what do you get for the extra money?' rather than 'which is best value for money?'
So far the difference seems to be the better grade of Ti, resulting in a better ride (thanks Monty). Not black and white though, because also used in part by Sabbath.
Anything else I should take into account?

Ta.

DaSy

It is debatable that there is any real world advantage with 6/4 Ti over 3/2.5 for a bike, mostly it is difficult to work into a tube, so is mostly rolled and seamed which pretty much cancels out most of its strength advantages.

As I have said before, the material really is a small factor in the quality of the overall frame. How the material is drawn into tubes, and the actual design of the frame all have the major bearing on the final outcome.

A cheap Ti frame will be made of a more basic tube, due to price restrictions, etc. Just as all steel frames are not equal, Ti frames aren't too, quality of design and tubing will make a major impact.

msamos

What about warranty or customer service?

Also, depending how much you really want to go, Seven does custom work...

Moaner - you are in the position I hope to one day be in... And, a Ti Seven would be my one-time big $$ purchase, hands down. The first time I saw one, it was a "I HAVE TO HAVE ONE" moment. The bikes ooze quality and high-end finish. And, if you want to freshen up your ride after a few years, Seven offers a repaint/refinish service for a very reasonable amount (<1k$).

Now, I've got that itch, again...

Anonymous

If I had the cash lying about I would have no hesitation whatsoever in buying this -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUNDAY-SABBATH-Mondays-Child-Titanium-Campagnolo_W0QQitemZ260522883928QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Bikes_GL?hash=item3ca85fbb58#ht_578wt_1165

Scrumple

There were a few bargain deals on Monday's child bikes this last few months, pre the new range.
I nearly went for one, but the Silk Road Pro suited my needs better. Top class out and out race bike.

mrushton

Moaner wrote:

Interesting replies, thanks.
I'm planning a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. That's why I was asking is 'what do you get for the extra money?' rather than 'which is best value for money?'
So far the difference seems to be the better grade of Ti, resulting in a better ride (thanks Monty). Not black and white though, because also used in part by Sabbath.
Anything else I should take into account?

Ta.

Once in a lifetime? Then it has to be American. No.1 would probably be the Serotta Legend (for me) but those Seven bikes are stunning. Moots and Lynskey are v.nice.Have a look round before you spend the cash. Mosquito bikes are agents for some expensive kit and Cyclefit are the Serotta people.

Anonymous

Independant Fabrication should, IMO, be in the running but I luuuuurve the Baum frames. They do fully custom too.

mrushton

Doh! forgot about IF. Their new carbon lugs shaped like their 'Crown' logo look sublime. Yes, IF have to be in there. Where is my lottery cheque when I need it?

tyskie

Moaner - for a once in a lifetime purchase then go for a custom build unless by chance a stock bike fits you perfectly (a custom build will rule out most of the far east imports). If you go for an IF, Baum etc. with a custom paint job, then for your money you will probably get a bike that no one else in the country has got. If you go for a Sabbath etc. then you will get a bike that looks the same as every other bike from the same company. Is that an important factor for you?

I was in the same position as you about 9 months ago and ended up with an IF Ti Crown Jewel with a 3/4 Candy Orange paint job. It's fairly stiff, super comfortable, rides like a dream and looks amazing. Check out the Candy Absinthe colour. I saw one in Mosquito Bikes the other month and was blown away!

Anonymous

tyskie wrote:

Moaner - for a once in a lifetime purchase then go for a custom build unless by chance a stock bike fits you perfectly (a custom build will rule out most of the far east imports). If you go for an IF, Baum etc. with a custom paint job, then for your money you will probably get a bike that no one else in the country has got. If you go for a Sabbath etc. then you will get a bike that looks the same as every other bike from the same company. Is that an important factor for you?

I was in the same position as you about 9 months ago and ended up with an IF Ti Crown Jewel with a 3/4 Candy Orange paint job. It's fairly stiff, super comfortable, rides like a dream and looks amazing. Check out the Candy Absinthe colour. I saw one in Mosquito Bikes the other month and was blown away!

You need to post a picture of your bike!!

Scrumple

I think painting ti is missing the point.

Why bother?

(Sabbath do custom builds, and a variety of decals)

gabriel959

tyskie wrote:

Moaner - for a once in a lifetime purchase then go for a custom build unless by chance a stock bike fits you perfectly (a custom build will rule out most of the far east imports). If you go for an IF, Baum etc. with a custom paint job, then for your money you will probably get a bike that no one else in the country has got. If you go for a Sabbath etc. then you will get a bike that looks the same as every other bike from the same company. Is that an important factor for you?

I was in the same position as you about 9 months ago and ended up with an IF Ti Crown Jewel with a 3/4 Candy Orange paint job. It's fairly stiff, super comfortable, rides like a dream and looks amazing. Check out the Candy Absinthe colour. I saw one in Mosquito Bikes the other month and was blown away!

For one in a lifetime thing I would definitely go that route (IF and Baum).

But Sabbath also offer a complete custom service and custom paint jobs I believe - it's called "Lucky Seven" I think.

Anonymous

Stunning -

tyskie

Scrumple wrote:

I think painting ti is missing the point.

Why bother?

(Sabbath do custom builds, and a variety of decals)

A good bare metal finish looks good but IF do some even better custom paint jobs.

tyskie

NapoleonD wrote:

You need to post a picture of your bike!!

You may gather from the picture that I'm quite tall so was great to get a custom build.

Scrumple

that is certainly some head tube.

How tall are you!

Looks great.

tyskie

6' 4'' Not exceptionally tall but the shorter top tube than an equivalent stock bike makes a big difference in comfort.

greg roche

Hi,

Thought i'd tip in with a couple of observations. First thing is grade of ti. There's no difference between 3al 2.5v or 6al 4v just because it comes from USA or China. 3al is 3al and 6al is 6al. The grades are set globally and if the material hits the grade, then that's what it is. There are differences in the properties of the two grades, though. I'm not the design engineer here, Iain is, but in laymans terms, 3al has greater ductility, and therefore greater fatigue life. 6al is stiffer and less material can therefore be used to achieve the same stiffness, so potentially a 6al bike should be lighter. However, because of the reduced ductility and fatigue life, 6al is more brittle and therefore prone to snapping. So really, its a case of each on its own merits. We use majority 3al because its properties suit what many customers want in a ti bike - long life and greater comfort. We use 6al in key areas on our racing models where we want to increase ride stiffness. In other words we employ it where we see a benefit to the use the bike will be put to.

Next up, welds. People point out that American welds can look 'neater'. I don't actually think there's so much difference, but some USA manufacturing looks neater because they use 6al weld rods which are usually smaller diameter and therefore look neater - there's less material. Here, we're not convinced of the benefit in that.

Last, manufacturing costs and quality. We do use majority manufacturing in China. And yes, its cheaper to get them to do the manufacturing. However, we have something approaching a zero failure rate - 2 pre production frames failed during testing and we've had 1 commercial return since we started business. So you cant really say there's a problem with manufactuing quality! And that frees up budget to spend elsewhere - namely on in-house design. Our new range make use of tube technology that no other manufacturers are cntemplating and, we feel, gives our frames, particularly the ones further up the range, a great advantage for riders. We typically come up with a concept and work with the manufacturers to make it work commercially.

Hope thats useful insight.

Greg

mrushton

NapoleonD wrote:

Stunning -

I think Serotta have some trick lugs this year but the IF ones are the dogs....

One of my Serottas has the carbon in a blue tint with the Ti in 'White Gold' Bling yes, but in the sun it looks superb

rake

im pleased someone put a good word in for china manufacturing. with decent machinery they should be able to match the quality of most. its the slave labour that makes them cheap not the quality cutting.