Traffic Lights with sensors

attica

Apparently in London you often see cyclists jumping red lights: this is sufficient justification for death threats in the press these days. These cyclists should be nicked, no question. Unless the lights have sensors which don't detect bikes, in which case they are within the law, but that's uncommon

The above is from a link in Terra Nova's thread.
I've had a rummage through the HIghway Code and can't see anything to back this statement up but would be interested to know if there's any truth in the assertion that you can jump lights that have sensors that don't sense bikes. There's one like this on my commute - opposite the Hippodrome a Ped Crossing in the Buses and bikes only section, only ever triggered by buses

I've sat at this junction for an age before now, even had a bus come the other way and trigger the lights but they only changed for his direction.

Legal to jump them or not? Discuss

.

Jay dubbleU

Movement sensors on traffic lights in this area pick up bikes no problem

Roastie

Cyclecraft recommends you dismount and lay your bike down on the sensor - this should trigger it. :roll: I've always wondered it that works for non-metallic bikes (i.e. those new fangled plastic carbon thingies).

ride_whenever

meh, stopping is for chumps...

cx style dismount and running re-mount...

gert_lush

i ride along Westbury road (bristol) each morning and I swear they have done something strange to lights, there are about 4 sets in particular that they have either changed the sequencing or have added sensors to because they are green for a seriusly short time now and the traffic infront of me alwasy gets through and I always get stopped ggrrrrrrr

attica

ride_whenever wrote:

meh, stopping is for chumps...

cx style dismount and running re-mount...

I must admit, I prefer that to the Cyclecraft solution - unless of course it's nigh on impossible to cross on foot as well.

rhext

Must confess, I just wait a while and then advance slowly and carefully..... Other solutions just seem daft to me! Not RLJing for the sake of not RLJing!

Wallace1492

D Lock the traffic lights!!

Roastie

ride_whenever wrote:

meh, stopping is for chumps...

cx style dismount and running re-mount...

Now you're talking!

Dudu

The HC advice is that, if you suspect the traffic lights are not working, you should proceed past them in a careful and cautious manner (the way most london RLJers do at red lights anyway, not that it impresses me).

Whether lights that fail to detect bicycles are legally defective or not is another argument.

In most circs it wouldn't take much longer if you waited for a car to come along and trigger them.

rhext

Ha! I was right! Me, me, me!

Kieran_Burns

I thought with the motion sensitive ones you just had to do the Team America secret signal 8)

FeynmanC

I've got a motion sensitive one that control access to a single lane railway bridge, with a thin bike path to the side.

I used to wait when they were on red, sometimes doing a little bike-mounted dance to see if they would change :oops: They rarely did.

Now I just go onto the bike path bit and go back onto the road if the lights change in my favour (the bike path is very thin, with stinging nettles that can overgrow it, not good in lycra shorts!)

roger_merriman

can't say i've found a broken/not detecting traffic lights while on the bikes, But have over the years with the car.

wait a reasonable time and then go, but carefully. but very rare at least for I.

redvee

Attica wrote:

There's one like this on my commute - opposite the Hippodrome a Ped Crossing in the Buses and bikes only section, only ever triggered by buses

This the set of lights at the end of Baldwin Street? If the buses coming the other way, away from Broadquay, get the green light then I'll jump the red on my side :oops: If I've got a bus behind me then I'll pull forward well ahead of the white line so that the bus is recognised by the lights. If the lights are red and no buses present then I'll get the Metro out from the bags beside the railings and read it whilst waiting.

Stone Glider

In Northants. they have built a nice new bridge to replace a level crossing. It spans the railway line and Grand Union Canal, which makes it quite long and steep. it is also single track and has lights controlling access. Unfortunately I cannot cross the bridge before the lights change and let oncoming traffic towards me :oops: .

So far nobody has had a go at me but it is embarrassing that I am so slow.

Temporary traffic light timings can also be a source of grief as again the time allowed gives no grace to old, fat, slow cyclists!

prj45

It's always illegal to go through a red light, unless you're directed by a police officer.

tiki tourer

This is a cause of great frustration. So much so that I have stopped lurking and joined.

I use the same junction as the OP and have exactly this problem. Unless a bus joins me at the junction the light stays red. I always thought this was a weight issue (funny since I do not need any excuse to put on more weight). Are the sensors not pressure sensors?

I even thought of writing to the council to see if that would do any good. It must surely be a defence to a RLJ charge if the lights will never turn green.

UKScooby

This is not just a London problem - I have it in Scarborough.

Its not just cycles as well. I used to run a 50cc scooter which wasn't picked upm but the 125cc replacement is. I guess its weight based via the lines that run in the road.

I would love to know if there is an answer - highways officers couldn't care less.

In the meantime I will keep running through - only at the right time. I have one set each day near work and know when the sequences move to allow a safe ride through.

The option of a car behind to trigger the lights helps (but not if like on Monday when some 'chump' followed me through turning right - going wide around my left making me slam on !!)

tiki tourer

I have reported the fault using the Council's online traffic light fault reporting form. We shall have to see how the "Cycling City" deal with this one.

I asked them to adjust the traffic light sensors so that they are capable of detecting a bicycle.

Fingers crossed.

TheBrogueadier

I know that set of lights well, it's a regular source of annoyance to me - There is another set with the same problem near the CREATE centre.

According to the city maps, it would be perfectly legal and within your rights to hop up onto the pavement at either side of those lights, cycle past them, and then drop back down into the road - The entire area there is that wonderful 'Shared Surface' (You know the stuff, dangerous and annoying to both pedestrians and cyclists alike).

With that in mind I tend to stop at the red, and slowly trundle through when there is a break in the pedestrians crossing.

singlespeedexplosif

Unless a bus joins me at the junction the light stays red. I always thought this was a weight issue (funny since I do not need any excuse to put on more weight). Are the sensors not pressure sensors?

no, they're magnetic sensors. Easily cured by spending a couple of quid on a neodymium magnet and taping it to the bottom of your BB shell.

Runoutofgears

I was quite surprised to find that the lights near to my home react to plastic/carbon bikes.

beverick

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

Unless a bus joins me at the junction the light stays red. I always thought this was a weight issue (funny since I do not need any excuse to put on more weight). Are the sensors not pressure sensors?

no, they're magnetic sensors. Easily cured by spending a couple of quid on a neodymium magnet and taping it to the bottom of your BB shell.

There are two main types of sensor for 'on demand' lights ('time phased' lights don't have sensors but work on a timer basis):

Induction loop - a copper coil buried in the tarmac generate a pulse of electricity when a ferrous object passes over it. You can usually see where 'loops' have been cut into the tarmac on the approach to the lights. They're usually accompanied by a small road-side box painted in the chosen colour of the relevant authority.

Infra-red - a shoe-box sixed sensor usually placed on the top of the posts carrying the traffic light head (but I have seen them on separate posts at the side of the road) detects the presence of a vehicle approaching the lights.

There used to be a third type, which I don't think exist any more, which worked on air pressure. A rubberised tube was sunk into the tarmac and vehicles trip a pressure switch when they cross over the tube.

The main problems with each type is that the sensitivity of the controller is usually adjusted to reduce 'unnecessary' changes and so the lights will usually only react to larger vehicles (ie motor bikes and above). There is also the problem that many local authorities see cyclists as generating 'unnecessary' changes and place the sensor in the centre of the running lane away from the 'usual' line of cycles.

The best thing is to report the problem to the relevant authority and, where possible, they 'should' adjust the lights to react to a bike (assuming, for induction systems, that it contains sufficient ferrous material).

Bob

The Rookie

prj45 wrote:

It's always illegal to go through a red light, unless you're directed by a police officer.

No.....

If you have reason to believe the lights are 'faulty' then its not illegal (you have a vaild defence) to cross on red, whether failing to detect legitemate traffic as designed and change as they should is 'faulty' is open to debate of course, they are working as intended, but not working as they 'should'!

There are two cases from the 30's (1931 and 1935 from memory) that established case law to that effect.

Simon

shouldbeinbed

Attica wrote:

Apparently in London you often see cyclists jumping red lights: this is sufficient justification for death threats in the press these days. These cyclists should be nicked, no question. Unless the lights have sensors which don't detect bikes, in which case they are within the law, but that's uncommon

The above is from a link in Terra Nova's thread.
I've had a rummage through the HIghway Code and can't see anything to back this statement up but would be interested to know if there's any truth in the assertion that you can jump lights that have sensors that don't sense bikes. There's one like this on my commute - opposite the Hippodrome a Ped Crossing in the Buses and bikes only section, only ever triggered by buses

I've sat at this junction for an age before now, even had a bus come the other way and trigger the lights but they only changed for his direction.

Legal to jump them or not? Discuss

.

flying visit not read the rest so apologies if this is repeated.

I've seen a few lengths of segregated bus & bike lanes spring up round my way and got caught out the first time waiting for ages at the never changing lights until a bus rolled up and they did immediately, the kindly (!!!) driver pointed out the cycle run off back onto the main drag just before the lights and told me that all of these ones had an advanced exit for bikes because they couldnt or wouldnt set the sensitivity of the TL's for bikes and didnt want to upset the drivers with random changes all the time. so the bikes get spat back out from behind tall railings right into the zone where the cars are looking more at the lock of traffic lights coming up than the space directly in front of them. good intentioned but badly executed bike provision again.

I'm lucky I can do as I do with most cycle lanes that inconvenience or endanger me and stick to the road.

lost_in_thought

Slightly OT, but beverick's very informative post reminded me of a question I had: you know when sometimes there are those black cables stretched across the road? Usually in pairs? What are they for?

jonginge

I've been assuming they measure traffic volume and speed (if in a pair).

rhext

I've always assumed that the sensors in the road are essentially metal detectors. All you'd need is a big loop of wire and the car would do the rest. No moving parts (unlike a weight-sensitive one), so lasts practically forever. But would not be sensitive to small bits of metal, like a bike.

I've had unpleasant experiences with temporary traffic lights too. There's a road coming out of Buxton called something like 'Long Hill' - no imagination when it comes to road names there! I got forced off the road in a set of temporary lights there once!

waddlie

Count me in as another who's been held up outside the Hippodrome for an inordinately long time. I don't generally RLJ but make two exceptions - the lights in the OP and the Coldharbour Road/Linden Road crossroads in Westbury Park which I occasionally jump because the alternative is sitting in the middle of the road, in the dark, hoping that someone will let me turn right before I get flattened by a van.

waddlie

gert_lush wrote:

i ride along Westbury road (bristol) each morning and I swear they have done something strange to lights, there are about 4 sets in particular that they have either changed the sequencing or have added sensors to because they are green for a seriusly short time now and the traffic infront of me alwasy gets through and I always get stopped ggrrrrrrr

Was that you that thoroughly scalped me one morning last week on Blackboy Hill when it was looking a bit icy? I was on a black MTB with bright red Night Vision jacket - riding gingerly due to the conditions!