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How do I handle this junction? (Edinburgh, Jock's Lodge)

DanielCoffeyDanielCoffey Posts: 142
edited December 2009 in Commuting chat
I need some advice on how to handle this junction at Jock's Lodge in Edinburgh when I am first in the queue in the ASL stopped at red.

GOOGLE MAP http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&...,+ ... 02095&z=19

I am stopped in the outside lane ASL (coming from the left as you look at the Google Map) and wanting to turn right across three lanes) to head up Meadowbank Avenue.

Despite a lovely double-wide ASL, traffic in my outside lane is allowed to proceed if they are going straight ahead while right-turning traffic is held by the lights. A right-turning car in the outside lane will, of course, neatly hold up traffic behind them while they wait for green but how does a cyclist handle this junction?

The reason for this question? Well watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_kZNhbWtJ4 and you will see what happens when WVM tries to squeeze past me to go ahead at the same time as a double-decker bus goes ahead in the inside lane. I have given details in the YouTube comments.

Posts

  • iain_jiain_j Posts: 1,941
    :shock:

    That's a sh!t-looking junction. For something like that I'd expect a dedicated right-turning lane so you're not in danger of rear-ended while waiting to turn right.

    What I'd do is go ahead of the stop line and wait more towards the middle of the junction, beyond the traffic island, out of the way of the passing traffic. Either that, or go a different way.
  • Despite a lovely double-wide ASL, traffic in my outside lane is allowed to proceed if they are going straight ahead while right-turning traffic is held by the lights. A right-turning car in the outside lane will, of course, neatly hold up traffic behind them while they wait for green but how does a cyclist handle this junction?

    Take the centre of the right hand lane. From the you tube clip you left too much room on your right.

    Mike
  • gabriel959gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    MTFU :twisted: :lol:
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    I think Mudcovered meant too much space on your left. Take primary position, you will get impatient drivers honking you, but there is no other way to do this safely. If you leave enough room for a car to squeeze past then they will, and as the traffic flow speeds up you'll be passed less carefully and by larger vehicles for which there won't be any room.

    Only other solutions are avoid the junction, or RLJ, and I certainly wouldn't condone that.

    What about a rearward facing camera too - so any rude / remonstrating drivers get their faces on youtube?
  • As soon as the light turns green, get off the paint and up to the junction proper in front of the second marker cone (at ped crossing). Wait there for your opening and go. Don't wait in the paint once the light goes green, move up.
    We need a bigger boat.

    Giant OCR 4
    Trek Madone 5.2
    Ridgeback Speed (FCN 15)
  • jairajjairaj Posts: 3,009
    Agree to the above comments. Take up primary position so cars can't squeeze past because they will if they can. Yes you may get some arsey drivers but remember you've done nothing wrong and if you were in a car you'd be blocking them anyway.
  • AidanRAidanR Posts: 1,142
    BiggerBoat wrote:
    As soon as the light turns green, get off the paint and up to the junction proper in front of the second marker cone (at ped crossing). Wait there for your opening and go. Don't wait in the paint once the light goes green, move up.

    +1

    Technically this might not be strictly legal as there still is a red light for the right turn, but given that people are going through the junction I don't think anyone will mind! Make sure you wait for the light to actually go green before you cross of course...
    Bike lover and part-time cyclist.
  • Wallace1492Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    Dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

    Take another route.

    Move to Glasgow - Edinburgh is p1sh!!
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • ceecee Posts: 4,553
    DanielCoffey

    I know the junction well.

    what i like to do is when the light turns green, creep forward enough to tuck yourself in front of the little island....

    that is where right turning cars would wait, is where other traffic will expect you to be and also gives a narrow vehicle like a bike that little pool of safety.
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • Of course not totally legal but safer than getting squished by WVM. The phasing of those lights doesn't make sense, surely both lanes should go green?
    We need a bigger boat.

    Giant OCR 4
    Trek Madone 5.2
    Ridgeback Speed (FCN 15)
  • I can't easily take an alternative route as I live on the block that Meadowbank Avenue leas to.

    The phasing is unusual and there are two situations...

    A - no pedestrian has pressed the signal on Meadowbank Terrace (incorrectly labelled as Meadowbank Crescent on the Google Map)

    Both lanes heading east go green. Both lanes heading west go green. The single lane heading southwest goes green.

    In this situation, yes I would just proceed past the traffic island and tuck right waiting for my gap.


    B - pedestrian HAS pressed the signal on Meadowbank Terrace

    Inside lane heading east goes green. Outside lane heading east stays red but cars going straight ahead may proceed legally. Both lanes heading west go green. The single lane heading south-west stays red.

    THIS is the situation where I have been having difficulty. If I am stopped in the ASL, then yes, I should probably stay in the centre of my lane.

    The advantage here is that I can signal while I am waiting as a courtesy to cars approaching from behind. At least the leading car can see my intention once I am permitted to proceed.

    Once the pedestrian crossing has cleared, the outside lane goes green and I can proceed past the traffic island and let all those artery-poppin' motorists who have been forced to wait for 20s go past.

    Right - thanks for the help folks - "take the lane" it is.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    I'd tuck in behind the traffic island as well. To me that's the safer option (and the option that'll avoid conflict) and I can't see any copper giving you a ticket for RLJ'ing even if technically that is what you'd be doing.
    More problems but still living....
  • alfablue wrote:
    I think Mudcovered meant too much space on your left. Take primary position, you will get impatient drivers honking you, but there is no other way to do this safely. If you leave enough room for a car to squeeze past then they will, and as the traffic flow speeds up you'll be passed less carefully and by larger vehicles for which there won't be any room.
    Exactly what I meant. Although because of the width of the lanes there (I looked at the streetview level afterwards) its almost impossible to position yourself central enough in the right hand lane in a way that wouldn't tempt some idiot into passing you. Those suggesting lurking just past the lights behind the central reservation may be onto something in this case.

    Mike
  • Eau RougeEau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    What would you do if you were in the same position, front of the queue, but on a Ducati instead?
    Is there a good reason not to do the same on the bicycle?

    When your standing there at the lights, have your right hand out all the time making it very very clear to any car behind that you are indicating that you are turning right and they will just have to wait, just as if you were on a motorbike.
  • ceecee Posts: 4,553
    amaferanga wrote:
    I'd tuck in behind the traffic island as well. To me that's the safer option (and the option that'll avoid conflict) and I can't see any copper giving you a ticket for RLJ'ing even if technically that is what you'd be doing.

    as far as i am concerned...this is the only safe way to wait there until the lights go the the full green phase....

    thats a busy road and at that point just after meadowbank stadium, some motors will moving pretty quick....i wouldn't want a fast moving car driver to have a smidsy and ping you all the way to machine mart!

    and are you technically even jumping the light if you only move forward as permitted by the filter? as long as you wait at the place you are in at about exactly 1min in the video, you could argue that you have not jumped the light. forget the asl stop line...the ahead filter already allows you to breach that stop line.
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    cee wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    I'd tuck in behind the traffic island as well. To me that's the safer option (and the option that'll avoid conflict) and I can't see any copper giving you a ticket for RLJ'ing even if technically that is what you'd be doing.

    as far as i am concerned...this is the only safe way to wait there until the lights go the the full green phase.....
    I would worry that there would then be added risk when trying to emerge from between the traffic islands. More chance of SMIDSY too, as you are partly concealed, then pop out.
  • cee wrote:
    DanielCoffey

    I know the junction well.

    what i like to do is when the light turns green, creep forward enough to tuck yourself in front of the little island....

    that is where right turning cars would wait, is where other traffic will expect you to be and also gives a narrow vehicle like a bike that little pool of safety.
    This is the only answer just now. I suspect that there may have been a right only lane there, which was covered over by the "safety gravel" sh!t they insist on painting everywhere too expensive to actually re-engineer.

    I thikn you should e-mail or otherwise write to the council. Whoever is in charge of cycle safety just now is asleep on the job or something. The word "cycle" wasn't mentioned in respect of the tram works and diversions anywhere on their website until I asked about it. Sending that vid might just elicit a response from someone.
  • alfabluealfablue Posts: 8,497
    Good idea to contact the council, at the very least they may adjust the traffic light phasing, which would be the low cost option. That sort of junction should have a right turn only lane, maybe it has become obscured as Always suggests.
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