Wet weather tyres

BenChaffer

Just got my Boardman Pro HT today
Only problem with it is the tyres (Conti Speed King 2.1) don't grip well on wet road. What would be a good upgrade for more grip?
I ride mainly on road and towpath btw.
Cheers

Dazzza

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... delID=5847

BenChaffer

Dazzza wrote:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5847

That will be grippier than Speed Kings?

supersonic

The best tyres to grip on smooth wet road is... pure slicks. No MTB knobbly tyre works real well here I am afraid.

ratty2k

BenChaffer wrote:

Dazzza wrote:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5847

That will be grippier than Speed Kings?

Like riding an anchor, you seen the weight of them?

Better options:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=39338
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=18826
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=36368
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... delID=3244

BenChaffer

supersonic wrote:

The best tyres to grip on smooth wet road is... pure slicks. No MTB knobbly tyre works real well here I am afraid.

No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet...

ratty2k

'tis true. Tread patterns on car tyres, M/bike tyres etc only channel water away so it [the tyre] doesn't aquaplane in the wet..
Contis (IMO) are not the best tyres for grip by a long way...

BenChaffer

ratty2k wrote:

'tis true. Tread patterns on car tyres, M/bike tyres etc only channel water away so it [the tyre] doesn't aquaplane in the wet..
Contis (IMO) are not the best tyres for grip by a long way...

You don't need to aquaplane to lose traction though.

nferrar

Slicks with a soft compound will grip better than any treaded tyre, if you don't want to believe it then fine get some trailrakers instead...

Whilst you're correct you don't need to aquaplane to lose traction ita fairly simple physics that the more tyre you have in contact with the road surface the more grip you'll have and treaded tyres on road don't bite in so you just end up riding on the knobs and greatly reduce the surface area of the tyre in contact with the road.

dave_hill

BenChaffer wrote:

Just got my Boardman Pro HT today
Only problem with it is the tyres (Conti Speed King 2.1) don't grip well on wet road. What would be a good upgrade for more grip?
I ride mainly on road and towpath btw.
Cheers

Forget the Hookworms, they'll add an unacceptable amount of weight to your bike. Have a look at DMR Moto Diggers, they're a close-pack tread so they have reasonably low rolling resistance but won't break the bank and weigh a lot less than Hookworms.

bails87

Racing Ralphs. I used them on my Boardman until a month ago. Nice and fast, and suprisingly grippy. Work well on road. Don't know how quickly they'll wear though, depends on your mileage I suppose. But if you're just on road and towpaths you don't need anything with massive tread.

You say "No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet..."
but what do they grip better than? Better than the cheap Conti's that come as standard on the Boardman? Or better than a decent slick tyre? It's like running around in football boots, they grip well off road, but a trainer with a nearly flat sole will grip a hard surface better.

BenChaffer

bails87 wrote:

Racing Ralphs. I used them on my Boardman until a month ago. Nice and fast, and suprisingly grippy. Work well on road. Don't know how quickly they'll wear though, depends on your mileage I suppose. But if you're just on road and towpaths you don't need anything with massive tread.

You say "No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet..."
but what do they grip better than? Better than the cheap Conti's that come as standard on the Boardman? Or better than a decent slick tyre? It's like running around in football boots, they grip well off road, but a trainer with a nearly flat sole will grip a hard surface better.

Yeah. The tyres I'm comparing it to are no-names from my BSO.
Are the Contis really just bad tyres? I was going about 15mph along the canal today and the front tyre completely lost grip on what was barely a corner.
It probably sounds stupid, but I want some nobblies for the extra confidence, even if they don't make a difference. Would a Nobby Nic on the front and a Racing Ralph on the back be good?

Thanks.

joshtp

BenChaffer wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Racing Ralphs. I used them on my Boardman until a month ago. Nice and fast, and suprisingly grippy. Work well on road. Don't know how quickly they'll wear though, depends on your mileage I suppose. But if you're just on road and towpaths you don't need anything with massive tread.

You say "No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet..."
but what do they grip better than? Better than the cheap Conti's that come as standard on the Boardman? Or better than a decent slick tyre? It's like running around in football boots, they grip well off road, but a trainer with a nearly flat sole will grip a hard surface better.

Yeah. The tyres I'm comparing it to are no-names from my BSO.
Are the Contis really just bad tyres? I was going about 15mph along the canal today and the front tyre completely lost grip on what was barely a corner.
It probably sounds stupid, but I want some nobblies for the extra confidence, even if they don't make a difference. Would a Nobby Nic on the front and a Racing Ralph on the back be good?

Thanks.

not for road, knobbolies are good ofr dirt, but for road slicks, or semi slicks are the best, even if you think knobbolies look more grippy, they wont be, not for road.

BenChaffer

joshtp/mbukman wrote:

BenChaffer wrote:

Yeah. The tyres I'm comparing it to are no-names from my BSO.
Are the Contis really just bad tyres? I was going about 15mph along the canal today and the front tyre completely lost grip on what was barely a corner.
It probably sounds stupid, but I want some nobblies for the extra confidence, even if they don't make a difference. Would a Nobby Nic on the front and a Racing Ralph on the back be good?

Thanks.

not for road, knobbolies are good ofr dirt, but for road slicks, or semi slicks are the best, even if you think knobbolies look more grippy, they wont be, not for road.

Then why did my no name tyres grip really well in wet road? Just randomly good tyres?
So what would you suggest, Ralphs?

joshtp

BenChaffer wrote:

joshtp/mbukman wrote:

BenChaffer wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Racing Ralphs. I used them on my Boardman until a month ago. Nice and fast, and suprisingly grippy. Work well on road. Don't know how quickly they'll wear though, depends on your mileage I suppose. But if you're just on road and towpaths you don't need anything with massive tread.

You say "No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet..."
but what do they grip better than? Better than the cheap Conti's that come as standard on the Boardman? Or better than a decent slick tyre? It's like running around in football boots, they grip well off road, but a trainer with a nearly flat sole will grip a hard surface better.

Yeah. The tyres I'm comparing it to are no-names from my BSO.
Are the Contis really just bad tyres? I was going about 15mph along the canal today and the front tyre completely lost grip on what was barely a corner.
It probably sounds stupid, but I want some nobblies for the extra confidence, even if they don't make a difference. Would a Nobby Nic on the front and a Racing Ralph on the back be good?

Thanks.

not for road, knobbolies are good ofr dirt, but for road slicks, or semi slicks are the best, even if you think knobbolies look more grippy, they wont be, not for road.

So what would you suggest, Ralphs?

no, id suggest something like a maxxis hookworm, although they are very heavy, so maybe a DMR Moto Digger, or if your riding does involve some gravely canal path, and you are worried about grip in the corners, a Maxxis Highroller SS
its like a normal high roller, but with the center tread replaced with diamond knurl, so it still has aggressive side lugs, meaning it grips well in off-road corners, but a semi slick center means it rolls very, very fast, and it grips well on tarmac. get it in a 2.1, ro even better a 2.35, a2.35 will be heavier, but will provide better comfort, a 2.1 will be faster.

bails87

TBH, I think the Ralphs will be a decent choice if your riding is just what you've described.

I haven't used the Speed Kings, but the Conti Explorers that came on mine weren't great, the 2.25" Racing Ralph's seemed grippier AND faster, lighter too.

I'm sure the Conti's aren't terrible, but it depends on what you're expecting from the tyre, what the conditions are like, you're weight may well be distributed very differently compared to your old bike, so that might affect the handling too.

Depending on the condition of the towpaths (that's where I normally ride, I find the canal a bit wet!) you might be better off with a semi-slick on the back at least. Nice and smooth for the roads, and quick on the towpaths in a straight line. But you've still got the braking power off-road from the nobblier front tyre, and when you lean over to turn, the side knobs will dig in to give turning grip. I'm tempted to do this if we get a proper summer next year.

At the end of the day though, if the tyres can't dig in to the surface, the knobs won't be doing anything, which is why I don't like turning at speed on wet road. And why damp natural ground gives loads of grip, the tyres dig in rather than sliding about, but it still has enough strength to 'hold' the tyre, unlike gloopy mud which you'll sink into, but slip about on.

BoardinBob

BenChaffer wrote:

supersonic wrote:

The best tyres to grip on smooth wet road is... pure slicks. No MTB knobbly tyre works real well here I am afraid.

No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet...

I'm with you on this point and I'll tell you why. I've tried slicks and knobblies on my commuter and I always felt I had more grip with the knobblies.

In addition, one of the oft quoted reasons that road bikes arent suitable for disc brakes is due to the size of the tyre contact patch and the fact that the braking forces would overwhelm the tyres adhesion to the road and you'd lock up.

Now taking two tyres of the exact same durometer; one slick, knobbly, adhesion properties of the tyre should be directly connected to the size of contact patch but if knobbly tyres can handle disc brakes without locking up this would suggest the contact patch is larger than a slick tyre. On top of that knobbly tyres are usually run at lower pressures than a slick so the tyre will deform more and adjust to the road surface, again surely giving a larger contact patch.

alfablue

BoardinBob wrote:

BenChaffer wrote:

supersonic wrote:

The best tyres to grip on smooth wet road is... pure slicks. No MTB knobbly tyre works real well here I am afraid.

No offence, but I don't believe that. My other MTB with knobbly tyres grips way better in corners in the wet...

I'm with you on this point and I'll tell you why. I've tried slicks and knobblies on my commuter and I always felt I had more grip with the knobblies.

In addition, one of the oft quoted reasons that road bikes arent suitable for disc brakes is due to the size of the tyre contact patch and the fact that the braking forces would overwhelm the tyres adhesion to the road and you'd lock up.

Now taking two tyres of the exact same durometer; one slick, knobbly, adhesion properties of the tyre should be directly connected to the size of contact patch but if knobbly tyres can handle disc brakes without locking up this would suggest the contact patch is larger than a slick tyre. On top of that knobbly tyres are usually run at lower pressures than a slick so the tyre will deform more and adjust to the road surface, again surely giving a larger contact patch.

Several things I don't agree with: If the oft quoted reason why road bikes aren't suitable for discs is the contact patch, then the reasoning is oft wrong! Road bikes don't need discs because they stop well enough (though there are some fitted with discs and there is no problem). It is extremely difficult to brake so hard that the front wheel skids on a slick tyred road bike, in fact an attempt to do so will probably result in an over the bars excursion! Michelin have researched wet grip on road tyres and on a 700 x 23c tyre you would need to travel at about 90mph to risk aquaplaning.

Bigger tyres aquaplane at lower speeds.

The contact patch of a slick tyre may well be as large as a knobbly - there is no contact between the knobbles remember. Add to that is the problem of "squirm" caused by movement of the knobbles which is treacherous in corners.

I don't think adhesion is directly linked to the contact patch area, as the contact patch increases so psi between tyre and road decreases.

I lock up my mtb tyres all too readily on wet tarmac, I have to go really carefully. The same is all but impossible on my road bike at the same speeds.

bails87

Also, a 2.35" MTB tyre at low pressure will have a much larger contact patch than a 23mm wide road tyre at 100psi. Comparing a 2" slick to a 2" knobbly is fairer, and more relevant to the OP. The knobs will never dig into the road, so the only thing that really matters is contact patch size, which will be bigger on the slick.

However, the OP isn't riding just on smooth roads, so a lightly treaded tyre is the best bet IMO.

BenChaffer

bails87 wrote:

Also, a 2.35" MTB tyre at low pressure will have a much larger contact patch than a 23mm wide road tyre at 100psi. Comparing a 2" slick to a 2" knobbly is fairer, and more relevant to the OP. The knobs will never dig into the road, so the only thing that really matters is contact patch size, which will be bigger on the slick.

However, the OP isn't riding just on smooth roads, so a lightly treaded tyre is the best bet IMO.

So if I understand what you're saying, getting a wider, slicker tyre should fix the problem? The speed kings I have on now are 2.1.

alfablue

No, a wider tyre (because it has lower pressure) will aquaplane at lower speed, get a narrower slick tyre. I ran 26x1.0 slicks on my mtb when winter commuting, never had any grip issues!

Sheldon Brown says

Bicycle tires for on-road use have no need of any sort of tread features; in fact, the best road tires are perfectly smooth, with no tread at all!
Unfortunately, most people assume that a smooth tire will be slippery, so this type of tire is difficult to sell to unsophisticated cyclists

he also says:

Squirm

Knobby treads actually give worse traction on hard surfaces! This is because the knobs can bend under side loads, while a smooth tread cannot.
The bending of knobs can cause discontinuities in handling; the tire grips OK for mild cornering, but as cornering force exceeds some critical value, the knobs start to bend and the traction suddenly goes to Hell in a handbasket.

see here.

ride_whenever

I'd try the 2.3" tioga skidrow tyres, insanely grippy and fast as fook.

Captain Turok

alfablue wrote:

I ran 26x1.0 slicks on my mtb when winter commuting, never had any grip issues

+1 Great for tarmac but they are very sketchy on anything loose.

alfablue

Captain Turok wrote:

alfablue wrote:

I ran 26x1.0 slicks on my mtb when winter commuting, never had any grip issues

+1 Great for tarmac but they are very sketchy on anything loose.

Yes, not great on thick mud or proper mtb terrain, not so bad on loose stuff if it is gravel sized (did canal tow path okay, and at good speed).

biff55

experiment or mix and match different tyre sizes and types to find a good combo.
i ride both road , tracks and trails , in the dry , wet and muddy and have settled on 1.9 semi - slick on rear , 2.1 knobbly panaracer xc pro on front.
both are reasonably light weight , the semi -slick ( maxxis wormdrive ) has awesome grip
on wet roads while the xc pro does the buisness off-road.
both roll fast.
theres a million different opinions on this , but hope mine helps.

BenChaffer

biff55 wrote:

experiment or mix and match different tyre sizes and types to find a good combo.
i ride both road , tracks and trails , in the dry , wet and muddy and have settled on 1.9 semi - slick on rear , 2.1 knobbly panaracer xc pro on front.
both are reasonably light weight , the semi -slick ( maxxis wormdrive ) has awesome grip
on wet roads while the xc pro does the buisness off-road.
both roll fast.
theres a million different opinions on this , but hope mine helps.

Sounds good. Might go with this option. Thanks

seataltea

I have experimented with tyres on my HT Pro (three sets hanging in the garage to prove it).

I swear by Conti Race Kings for all conditions and surfaces with the exception of very wet and muddy off road.

They are lightening fast rollers, very grippy (watch me lean), offer cushioning from their fat rounded profile and are happy at 55psi for when you commute, the small close treads roll with little resistance on tarmac.

On the road you will fly along in the big ring, last week I purposely avoided my canal route and raced a roadie 6 miles home.Oon the flat he gained ground but on the hills I was faster, he couldn't shake me and when I peeled off was only 50yds behind.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Conti ... 360039972/

And the beauty of this choice is that they will be fantastic off road with a lower psi, I've raced the bike at events on a Sunday and then ridden it to work on a Monday with these tyres.

BenChaffer

seataltea wrote:

I have experimented with tyres on my HT Pro (three sets hanging in the garage to prove it).

I swear by Conti Race Kings for all conditions and surfaces with the exception of very wet and muddy off road.

They are lightening fast rollers, very grippy (watch me lean), offer cushioning from their fat rounded profile and are happy at 55psi for when you commute, the small close treads roll with little resistance on tarmac.

On the road you will fly along in the big ring, last week I purposely avoided my canal route and raced a roadie 6 miles home.Oon the flat he gained ground but on the hills I was faster, he couldn't shake me and when I peeled off was only 50yds behind.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Conti ... 360039972/

And the beauty of this choice is that they will be fantastic off road with a lower psi, I've raced the bike at events on a Sunday and then ridden it to work on a Monday with these tyres.

What size do you use?
Also, how do the stock Speed Kings compare?

bails87

The Race Kings are probably a fairly sensible choice. You don't need a narrow (1") slick, because you'll have no grip on the towpath, assuming the towpath is that hardpack dirt stuff, with the odd muddy patch?

Aquaplaning really isn't an issue, so I'd ignore it tbh, you won't realistically aquaplane, and seeing as the issue was a lack of turning grip, not a lack of speed, a slick isn't the answer.

Out of interest, what pressure have you got in your tyres? Try letting the front down a bit, it lets the tyre deform and grip off road a bit more, not entirely sure what this will do to the road grip though. But no MTB will be great at this, so don't expect too much, although the rounded profile of the Race Kings will probably mean they're better than most.

Also, is there a folding bead version of the Race King, with the Black Chilli compund? It might be worth paying the extra for that, it'll be lighter, grippier and longer lasting (if Conti's marketing is to be believed!)

seataltea

I use the 2.2s, although the sizing is somewhat of an underestimate, they're huge, front clearance is close but I've never had any problems.

The Speed Kings are slow on the straights and unstable iin the corners, when I first took a corner it felt like riding on jelly because the large widely spaced tread next to the sidewalls were flexing and they did not inspire confidence, they were replaced after a week.

I'm now a two tyre man for this bike.

Conti Verticals for the big deep muddy rides combined with Dr Sludge inner tubes (these tyres are very prone to picking up thorns).

Conti Race Kings for all other XC, commuting and event conditions, no punctures after 1000 miles and reasonable wear rates.

This is a light, quick bike and it deserves the right tyre choice, just fit Race Kings and you'll never be off it.

BenChaffer

Update:
While putting on my Race King Supersonic 2.2s ( ) I realised the reason for all the traction issues. As you may or may not know, when installing Speed Kings the rear tyre should be the opposite way round to the front. I didn't realise (nor did the halfords builder) until I looked at the side of the tyre today. The result was no grip in corners and the rear brake locking up at the slightest hint of a squeeze.

To seataltea, do you remember if yours were oriented correctly?

Either way, everything is all good now. The Race Kings really made this bike amazing. I can do 30+mph on flats now with no problem.