Lactic acid..

The Northern Monkey

Does anyone else get the lactic acid taste in the back of their throat when they're well and truly shagged after a ride?

Its particularly bad this time because I haven't ridden for a bit, but I have a serious case of DOMS and the lactic acid taste is rank!

I've tried the bicarbonate approach to remove lactate but it doesn't seem to be having much of an affect, however eating a few bananas seems to have stemmed any cramp.

Anyone got any other remedies to correct the pH in my muscles? bloody killing!

ride_whenever

is it acidic/sharp metallic slightly blood-like taste, that's usually from a bit of blood being forced into the lungs/burst capillaries.

To remove lactate from muscles you need to keep your heartrate up and warm down properly...

The Northern Monkey

Yea thats the chap...

Maybe you're right and it is just the blood (would make sense) I never knew that happened tbh as I never completer the sports physiology course, went onto nutrition instead.

Interesting, cheers ride_whenever

rhyko7

To remove lactate from muscles you need to keep your heartrate up and warm down properly...[/quote]

why would you want to remove the lactic acid? your body will just recycle it and use it for fuel and as an energy source. ive never seen any evidence out there to support a warm down or that it has any benefits?
please if im wrong do share?i may well be

The Northern Monkey

Lactic acid is toxic. it stops your muscles working and causes cramps.

65% of lactic acid is converted to carbon dioxide and water, 20% into glycogen, 10% into protein and 5% into glucose. (very approx btw).

rhyko7

bigbenj_08 wrote:

Lactic acid is toxic. it stops your muscles working and causes cramps.

65% of lactic acid is converted to carbon dioxide and water, 20% into glycogen, 10% into protein and 5% into glucose. (very approx btw).

i was sure thats an old wives tale and lactate is not a waste product so i decided to do my homework on this before replying!

lactate has nothing to do with soreness or cramp, its burnt off very fast during exercise and even if you suddenly stopped at the end of exercise it would all be gone within an hour of exercise. lactate doesnt build up very high with aerobic exercise anyway, its only when you go highly into anaerobic that the body really starts developing it.

sources, not official but seems genuine enough for me:
http://www.time-to-run.com/theabc/lactic.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/healt ... .html?_r=1
that Dr Brookes seems to be the main guy behind the research
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/lactic-acid.html - lots of references at bottom of page
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/lactic.htm

this is being debated on this forum too
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=565987

The Northern Monkey

hmm fair enough. Things must have changed in the 3/4 months I haven't been at Uni.

Wish I still had acess to all the journals

rhyko7

bigbenj_08 wrote:

hmm fair enough. Things must have changed in the 3/4 months I haven't been at Uni.

Wish I still had acess to all the journals

there are a few sites where you can download journals if your know what to search for.

wouldnt surprise me if they are still teachin that to be honest, the general public still believe it to be true. there are a lot of things like this that we are led to be believe-dont get me started on health supplements lol
a warm down may be beneficial in some ways, perhaps when you keep the blood circulating at a higher than rest flow rate, more nutrients are carried into the muscles.
i just went for a revovery ride and got a bit carried away with my pace, my legs feel worse than yesterday now, doh!

Mc Smiley

ACID IS BAD!
The fact it is lactic acid is enough to tell you that your muscles will not like it, it causes metabolic acidosis. Proteins break down and so on and so forth, decrease in contraction as it says in those articles
A warm down will help as it will help facilitate movement of blood through the body bringing oxygen around to the muscles to cope with the oxygen debt.

But the point in hand, everyone probably does anareobic exercise. But yes the cramp is an unrelated thing for sure, often due to ion deficiency, eat Banana's, amongst many otehr thinsg as those articles state no one really knows.

Oh and a lot of those references are over 10 years old, the fact there are many proves nothing except work has been done looking into lactic acid.

Also it even mentions that acidosis can be a cause of soreness

Also mentions lactate must first be converted to pyruvate to be used as a fuel, which wil take energy.

Also Overall that Dr's article is convuluted at best

Just one example

"blood lactate or even lactic acid, has a direct detrimental effect on muscle performance"

couple of lines later

"The increase in hydrogen ions and subsequent acidity of the internal environment is called acidosis. It is thought to have an unfavorable effect on muscle contraction (10) and there has been considerable research to demonstrate that this is the case"

Therefore yes it may not be direct, but the fact is, there and give Hydrogen ions causes the problem.

rhyko7

Mc Smiley wrote:

ACID IS BAD!
The fact it is lactic acid is enough to tell you that your muscles will not like it, it causes metabolic acidosis. Proteins break down and so on and so forth, decrease in contraction as it says in those articles
A warm down will help as it will help facilitate movement of blood through the body bringing oxygen around to the muscles to cope with the oxygen debt.

But the point in hand, everyone probably does anareobic exercise. But yes the cramp is an unrelated thing for sure, often due to ion deficiency, eat Banana's, amongst many otehr thinsg as those articles state no one really knows.

Oh and a lot of those references are over 10 years old, the fact there are many proves nothing except work has been done looking into lactic acid.

Also it even mentions that acidosis can be a cause of soreness

Also mentions lactate must first be converted to pyruvate to be used as a fuel, which wil take energy.

Also Overall that Dr's article is convuluted at best

Just one example

"blood lactate or even lactic acid, has a direct detrimental effect on muscle performance"

couple of lines later

"The increase in hydrogen ions and subsequent acidity of the internal environment is called acidosis. It is thought to have an unfavorable effect on muscle contraction (10) and there has been considerable research to demonstrate that this is the case"

Therefore yes it may not be direct, but the fact is, there and give Hydrogen ions causes the problem.

i think you mis read it-this is the the full entance you quoted:
"A common misinterpretation is that blood lactate or even lactic acid, has a direct detrimental effect on muscle performance"

your second quote is kinda what the scientists are debating, ile leave that to the brains.

i think we have both wandered slightly off topic, which is my fault for starting a debate on lactic acid, my original point was that i dont think a warm down makes much if any difference, especially if the last 10 or 15 minutes of your ride is in the aerobic zone.
when the muscles have torn, no ammount of cool down will fix that.

Mc Smiley

Fortunately I happen to be at uni and admitedly no tests on human tissue. But all tissue have to be kept at the correct pH to stop it degrading. So I would say it is misleading. I agree on teh fact it is not direct but because lactic acid is an acid it will dissociate in solution to form a base and Hydrogen ions, as humans are mostly water. So they indirectly cause detrimental effect on muscle performance. As the second quote states.

Well I reckon it can do no harm even in the case of aerobic exercise as the waste products need to get awaay somehow and CO2 in the muscle will become carbonic acid, and lower pH. Probably very little but just as warming up helps your muscles become accustomed to the activity you are doing warming down would help as well. always good to stretch as well, can improve pedalling action and reduce the risk of injuries.
But yes agreed on the last one, RICE. Stop the swelling that could damage the muscle and then wait for the body to do its healing thing.

physiosteve

Lactic acid is sometimes found in food products. When I was a kid I got spooked when I found out Mini Cheddars and Ritz biscuits contained Lactic Acid. I actually thought that it would effect my performance and Id fatigue sooner...! Sour milk products, such as: yogurt, and some cottage cheeses contain it since the casein in fermented milk is coagulated (curdled) by lactic acid.

Sauerkraut contains lactic acid, formed when lactic acid bacteria ferment the sugars in finely shredded cabbage. Lactic acid is an ingedient in a corn based plastic that does not have a very large enviromental footprint.

ride_whenever

Eeerm, warm downs do help, but only after really high intensity work.

Anecdotal evidence:

2k erg test (rowing machine) followed by passing out, throwing up, crawling up a flight of stairs, sleeping for 2 hours results in not being able to walk for 3 days.

2k erg test same intensity and warmup followed by lying on floor, then getting back on machine and doing 10 mins very steady warm down resulted in no pain.

butcher of bakersfield

I'v, e no journals in front of me but I do know that if I have a good stretch after a ride it leaves me feeling fresh as a daisy.

No stretch, tired and sore.