Crash!

BoardinBob

Headhuunter wrote:

BoardinBob wrote:

As I approached the set of lights with Asylum Rd turning off on my left, I slowed, but then they switched to green, so I picked up pace again. There was a bunch of cyclists on my left who had been waiting at the red. They all started to move off but as I hadn't slowed to a complete stop, I passed them at about 20-25mph,

Were you filtering through traffic as you approached the lights?

Glad you're ok, but I have to say there's a world of difference between "complete stop" and "20-25mph"

No, not filtering through traffic and not a complete stop. The road ahead was clear (apparently I have been told by witnesses, my memory of it all is a little fuzzy). I was coming towards the light on red and slowing as I aproached, but as I approached, it flicked to green so I picked up pace and continued through. The other cyclists were stationary as they had reached the junction before me and come to a complete standstill at the red light, but it was never red for me so I continued on when I was cut up by the driver turning across in front of me.

Ah ok.

I thought the driver was one of those that as soon as the lights go green he floors it to turn right before the oncoming traffic has reached him, and you'd been filtering and he hadn't seen you.

The Chingford Skinhead

Blimey HH. Not good but it could have been a whole lot worse. Amazed you got away with - relatively - little damage. It's going to hurt over the next few days though as the adrenalin wears off and the body wakes up to the shock.

Good luck with the recovery and insurance. Stay safe.

gabriel959

This London place looks like a dangerous place.

Get well soon fella and claim as much as you can!!!

turnerjohn

Cheers. So did you use a solicitor? If not how did you decide how much to claim in personal injury? I haven't got receipts for the bike, it was 2nd hand with upgraded wheels, which were also 2nd hand.....[/quote]

Went throught his (Churchill) insurance who said they would deal with it...hum...feel like I'm being fobbed off tho so yes will been seeking legal advise. Im a member of the CTC who do free legal advise so their going to be my next port of call...when I get a spare half hour lol.
Shame about the bike front tho mate. Looks like best bet would be to get it to your LBS and get them to give you a quote...just dont mention the 2nd hand bit !
Good luck and all the best with a speedy recovery !

always_tyred

Just to double check - there wasn't a right filter coming the other way was there?

Infinitecimal possibility that the junction was still clearing, even though you were on green?

I'll take my Clarkson hat off now.

Specialized Needs

Always Tyred wrote:

Just to double check - there wasn't a right filter coming the other way was there?

Infinitecimal possibility that the junction was still clearing, even though you were on green

I hope my understanding of HH's description is correct and that the following helps to understand the location - if not, then ignore the following!

From my recollection of that junction (travel it every day), there is a filter from the direction I understand the car came from (eastbound, Asylum Rd on the right in that view). I think this would have been HH's approach (westbound): 2 lanes, the left hand has just converted from a bus lane at that point. Having sat at that junction many a time, my experience is that it is a fixed sequence set of lights where the sequence is:

[repeat]
Old Kent Road both directions, no filter
Old Kent Road eastbound and right filter + Asylum Road left filter only
Asylum Road left and right filters
[/repeat]

so, if I recall correctly, a car should not be sat in the junction at the light change unless it has just been blocking Asylum Road traffic turning onto the OKR, although often cars do encroach eastbound. But as you can see, it is a hell of a distance from where a car should wait to get over the junction to turn right.

turnerjohn

duncedunce wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Just to double check - there wasn't a right filter coming the other way was there?

Infinitecimal possibility that the junction was still clearing, even though you were on green

I hope my understanding of HH's description is correct and that the following helps to understand the location - if not, then ignore the following!

From my recollection of that junction (travel it every day), there is a filter from the direction I understand the car came from (eastbound, Asylum Rd on the right in that view). I think this would have been HH's approach (westbound): 2 lanes, the left hand has just converted from a bus lane at that point. Having sat at that junction many a time, my experience is that it is a fixed sequence set of lights where the sequence is:

[repeat]
Old Kent Road both directions, no filter
Old Kent Road eastbound and right filter + Asylum Road left filter only
Asylum Road left and right filters
[/repeat]

so, if I recall correctly, a car should not be sat in the junction at the light change unless it has just been blocking Asylum Road traffic turning onto the OKR, although often cars do encroach eastbound. But as you can see, it is a hell of a distance from where a car should wait to get over the junction to turn right.

Did you see if the car was sitting in the junction before-hand?
Alwaystired could be right about the junction clearing (although I dont know the geometry of it or timings etc). The way it stands in that a vehcile is allowed to pass a stop-line if they have a green, and "wait" till their exit is clear until proceding (with due care and attention)...providing to yellow box signs are within the junction centre. Its possible the car was turning (as they saw the other cyclists stationary along with the traffic) and clearing didn't see you as you were tanking it (20+ is dam shifting in London!...thats going to make things a little more complicated to prove....although the whole "procedding with due care and attention" does apply to everyone at any junctions.

I was hit at a priority junction, and the guy pulled out without even looking ! (he admitted it!) so was pretty clear cut (even tho I was doing over 26mph).

All the best trying to get things sorted tho mate, still looks like its the driver, just maybe harder to prove thats all.

Specialized Needs

turnerjohn wrote:

Did you see if the car was sitting in the junction before-hand?
Alwaystired could be right about the junction clearing (although I dont know the geometry of it or timings etc). The way it stands in that a vehcile is allowed to pass a stop-line if they have a green, and "wait" till their exit is clear until proceding (with due care and attention)...providing to yellow box signs are within the junction centre. Its possible the car was turning (as they saw the other cyclists stationary along with the traffic) and clearing didn't see you as you were tanking it (20+ is dam shifting in London!...thats going to make things a little more complicated to prove....although the whole "procedding with due care and attention" does apply to everyone at any junctions.

Not my traffic incident, and I am interpreting without HH yet saying that my interpretation is correct (so this could all be so much speculative twaddle). However, I obviously didn't describe the light sequence there clearly.

If I am right about the scenario: both directions of lights on the Old Kent Road are red while the traffic from Asylum Road is on green to come across the junction (in front of where I understand the car would have been). Then Asylum Road goes red and both Old Kent Road main lights go green, which is when HH would have been approaching the junction. Finally, westbound Old Kent Road goes red and the eastbound right filter comes on (while still allowing eastbound straight on traffic), with Asylum Road's left filter coming on. Then the sequence repeats.

always_tyred

Yup - there's no right filter against HH there. What I was thinking about definitely couldn't have happened.

I hope you all found my insurance adjustor impression convincing.

Headhuunter

I was approching the junction along Old Kent Road towards central London from New Cross, passing through the junction from where the black cab and yellow lorry are in the Google Maps image. In fact I would probably have been about where the black cab is in that image (I moved to the centre of the carriagway to get past the gaggle of waiting cyclists on my left, as mentioned before).

The driver was literally coming in the direction the Google Maps vehicle is facing and turned in front of me across the yellow hatched area heading into Asylum Rd, the turn off to the right. So I assume we both had a green light but as with any normal junction, he was supposed to wait for oncoming traffic (me) to pass through before crossing to turn right, but he didn't he just pulled across into my path at which point I hit him...

Headhuunter

turnerjohn wrote:

duncedunce wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Just to double check - there wasn't a right filter coming the other way was there?

Infinitecimal possibility that the junction was still clearing, even though you were on green

I hope my understanding of HH's description is correct and that the following helps to understand the location - if not, then ignore the following!

From my recollection of that junction (travel it every day), there is a filter from the direction I understand the car came from (eastbound, Asylum Rd on the right in that view). I think this would have been HH's approach (westbound): 2 lanes, the left hand has just converted from a bus lane at that point. Having sat at that junction many a time, my experience is that it is a fixed sequence set of lights where the sequence is:

[repeat]
Old Kent Road both directions, no filter
Old Kent Road eastbound and right filter + Asylum Road left filter only
Asylum Road left and right filters
[/repeat]

so, if I recall correctly, a car should not be sat in the junction at the light change unless it has just been blocking Asylum Road traffic turning onto the OKR, although often cars do encroach eastbound. But as you can see, it is a hell of a distance from where a car should wait to get over the junction to turn right.

Did you see if the car was sitting in the junction before-hand?
Alwaystired could be right about the junction clearing (although I dont know the geometry of it or timings etc). The way it stands in that a vehcile is allowed to pass a stop-line if they have a green, and "wait" till their exit is clear until proceding (with due care and attention)...providing to yellow box signs are within the junction centre. Its possible the car was turning (as they saw the other cyclists stationary along with the traffic) and clearing didn't see you as you were tanking it (20+ is dam shifting in London!...thats going to make things a little more complicated to prove....although the whole "procedding with due care and attention" does apply to everyone at any junctions.

I was hit at a priority junction, and the guy pulled out without even looking ! (he admitted it!) so was pretty clear cut (even tho I was doing over 26mph).

All the best trying to get things sorted tho mate, still looks like its the driver, just maybe harder to prove thats all.

I don't remember seeing him waiting at the junction I have to say, the first thing I remember is his bonnet coming out in front of me across the hatched yellow bit of the road....

always_tyred

I was wondering if he'd got a run through the junction, a bit like you (of course you weren't turning right). There are a few junctions on my commute where people occasionally nip across before oncoming traffic, but the stop line from your direction isn't remotely far back enough, from a standing start that is.....

Either way, you appear to have been a victim of some chavtastic driving.

jejv

"it is always the best swimmers who drown."

Headhuunter wrote:

Well I suppose it had to happen. [...] I slowed, but then they switched to green, so I picked up pace again. There was a bunch of cyclists on my left who had been waiting at the red. They all started to move off but as I hadn't slowed to a complete stop, I passed them at about 20-25mph,

You have green, but that doesn't mean it's safe. Especially on a changing light. You (and plenty of others round here) are fast enough to be too fast for your own safety. You have right of way, sure, but that means what on a bicycle ?

You were checking the junction (and the slower cyclists) as you went through ? You drive with your fingers on the brakes, right ?

Then, of course, if you do drive carefully and defensively on a bicycle, you're a slow numpty who belongs on the pavement. And following motorists (and fast cyclists) will righteously and rightfully carve you up for your numptiness.

That's the dilemma of cycling.

always_tyred

Now I've ruled out the green filter lane thing, I think this is a "there but for the grace of a cumulous omnipotent entity" event.

jejv

Always Tyred wrote:

I was wondering if he'd got a run through the junction, a bit like you (of course you weren't turning right). There are a few junctions on my commute where people occasionally nip across before oncoming traffic, but the stop line from your direction isn't remotely far back enough, from a standing start that is......

I don't see how - from the previous posts - the car driver could be doing anything other than runnng a clear red. Unless the lights were defective at that moment. But even then, green doesn't mean safe, it's still a junction, and the car driver should be prepared for cross traffic at at least the speed limit.

Headhuunter

jejv wrote:

"it is always the best swimmers who drown."

Headhuunter wrote:

Well I suppose it had to happen. [...] I slowed, but then they switched to green, so I picked up pace again. There was a bunch of cyclists on my left who had been waiting at the red. They all started to move off but as I hadn't slowed to a complete stop, I passed them at about 20-25mph,

You have green, but that doesn't mean it's safe. Especially on a changing light. You (and plenty of others round here) are fast enough to be too fast for your own safety. You have right of way, sure, but that means what on a bicycle ?

You were checking the junction (and the slower cyclists) as you went through ? You drive with your fingers on the brakes, right ?

Then, of course, if you do drive carefully and defensively on a bicycle, you're a slow numpty who belongs on the pavement. And following motorists (and fast cyclists) will righteously and rightfully carve you up for your numptiness.

That's the dilemma of cycling.

Firstly is it it me or are those new drop down ads which obliterate the entire screen as soon as you click anything on Bike Radar bloody annoying? Before you do anything you have to click <close> before you're able to see or do what you clicked on in the 1st place.... Someone please get rid of them!!

Secondly, in that situation, of course my speed made the accident worse. If I'd been going more slowly, I may have managed to stop or I wouldn't have smashed the windscreen etc. However I have to say that IME so far, riding at a speed which nearly matches that of motor traffic makes cycling safer. Motorists are less desperate to get past you at squeeze points and it's easier for you to take and hold a lane for a while and then let motorists pass in your time, if you are travelling at near enough the speed of the motorist in front anyway and they can see there is nowhere to go. Also at the speed I cycle at, buses and lorries never pass me because I'm usually going faster than them, so I never end up in situations with artics or bendy buses passing me and cutting me up as they pull in.

I ride with my fingers over the brakes at most times and usually make absolutely sure that I'm not likely to get some idiot pulling across my path as I cross junctions or pass turns on the left or right but I guess this time I must have missed it and it only takes that one attack of damn fool driving and you're toast....

FeynmanC

Headhuunter wrote:

Firstly is it it me or are those new drop down ads which obliterate the entire screen as soon as you click anything on Bike Radar bloody annoying? Before you do anything you have to click <close> before you're able to see or do what you clicked on in the 1st place.... Someone please get rid of them!!
.

Firefox + Adblock Plus = no annoying adverts

always_tyred

jejv wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

I was wondering if he'd got a run through the junction, a bit like you (of course you weren't turning right). There are a few junctions on my commute where people occasionally nip across before oncoming traffic, but the stop line from your direction isn't remotely far back enough, from a standing start that is......

I don't see how - from the previous posts - the car driver could be doing anything other than runnng a clear red. Unless the lights were defective at that moment. But even then, green doesn't mean safe, it's still a junction, and the car driver should be prepared for cross traffic at at least the speed limit.

I meant that if both HH and the driver had clear runs to the junction and came through on green, this would be consistent with the accident.

I think its one thing to say that it would have been possible to see the driver, but another thing entirely to suggest that HH was negligent in not doing so. If you think about it, the driver was in a right/striaght on lane, not indicating and to turn right would have involved driving into someone. Therefore, its the sort of scenario where it would be possible that I'd note the car, but possibly discount them as a hazard, until too late.