Does familiarity breed contempt?

The Chingford Skinhead

There is a theory - and it is only that - that increasing the number of cyclists on the road improves safety as drivers become more familiar with them and start to look out for them more.

I have to say that my experience of cycling in London suggests that as drivers get more used to cyclists they actually take more chances. Oh look, a space that isn't quite big enough for a bike and a car but hey, I'm in a car so here goes....

I was out in Essex at the weekend and noticed that most cars actually followed the advice in the highway code and crossed into the far lane to pass me (most of the time). There were even quite a few times when I could hear the car behind and thought there was sufficient room to pass - I'd even edge over to the left a bit - but the driver would wait until the oncoming lane was clear and then pass me. I actually found it quite disturbing!!! My experience in London - even the more outer London boroughs - is that if a car has to wait more than a few seconds it is revving and honking.

So - given the forum has reps from cities, towns and rural, what is your experience. Is the critical mass theory of safety improvement wrong?

fossyant

I commute in South Manchester, and ride in the Pennines/Cheshire at weekends......

Out of rush hour it's much better. Rush hour anywhere then it's every person for themselves...

Time of day and traffic density are the major factor.

Eau Rouge

That's just London drivers. I long-ago noticed drivers were more impatient the nearer London you get whether there are bikes around or not.

lost_in_thought

I have to say, essex drivers are reallly good at passing kindly.

I live there a fair bit of the time, and people who've visited me have commented on just how good essex drivers are at giving cyclists more room.

Whether it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you're onto something...

redddraggon

Eau Rouge wrote:

That's just London drivers. I long-ago noticed drivers were more impatient the nearer London you get whether there are bikes around or not.

I've noticed that I can ride nearly any time* of the day in North Wales and drivers still treat you with respect - as soon as I ride in England the drivers seem to act like c0ckends nearly 100% of the time.





*as long as you avoid Airbus shift changes. Airbus employees seem to have no respect for any other road user.

BentMikey

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, essex drivers are reallly good at passing kindly.

I live there a fair bit of the time, and people who've visited me have commented on just how good essex drivers are at giving cyclists more room.

Whether it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you're onto something...

I wanted to burst out laughing! Sorry, but that's the complete opposite of every time I've ridden through there. London's good, Essex and esp. Epping Forest sucks, and then it gets good in Suffolk again. Admittedly I've only done that trip 5 times, but the contrast was noticeable each time.

andy83

rush hour in birmingham is a joke

just glad i can commute to work down country lanes and not so much traffic and finish work at 9pm so no rush hour

the amount of times people pass me within 2cms of my life is a joke

roger_merriman

It's about rush rush rush. around london SE england folks are always in a rush where as back in the area in south wales as a trend they are not.

The Rookie

Country lanes in Warwickshire is my commute.

Lorry drivers and Bus drivers are generally very good, don't try to pass until its totally clear, 85% of car drivers are fine, the remainder (no stereotypes, but BMW's and older drivers seem to have a greater number of inhabitants in this section than they should) will happily cram past too close, I've bashed more than a few who've done this (flat of hand on rear wing) sometimes they pass much too close even when there is no need to as the road is clear.

Round my way there has been a definate increase in the number of bike commuters in the last 6 months.

Simon

Wallace1492

Generally plenty of room here in Glasgow, only a few per week enter my "comfort zone"

teagar

Cambridge has plenty more cyclists than your average town/city.

The problem there is that, quite simply, most of the roads arn't in fact wide enough for a bicycle and a car, let alone busses, who I have seen more than once gently knock a cyclist infront off before honking at them to get out of the way...

Combine that with a loose corroboration of students/academics with bicycles and locals in cars, and you get a stunning amount of road rage and very close encouters.


Where the roads are wider (Huntingdon Road anyone?) there seems to be much less stress.

I imagine the hassle/stress etc people encounter on their bikes is probably proportional to the width of the roads used and the busy-ness of them.

Clever Pun

TCS.... your experiences of cycling in london during the week perchance? during rush hours?

people are generally much more polite on the weekend as they're up to something nice rather than heading to work

This might be quite a contributing factor here rather than just location

lost_in_thought

BentMikey wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, essex drivers are reallly good at passing kindly.

I live there a fair bit of the time, and people who've visited me have commented on just how good essex drivers are at giving cyclists more room.

Whether it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you're onto something...

I wanted to burst out laughing! Sorry, but that's the complete opposite of every time I've ridden through there. London's good, Essex and esp. Epping Forest sucks, and then it gets good in Suffolk again. Admittedly I've only done that trip 5 times, but the contrast was noticeable each time.

OK, to be fair I'm not talking about the skanky area of essex - I live on the suffolk border. I've never really been to the london end of essex, but round my way the drivers are great. Couldn't ask for better.

EDIT: London's good? I'm beginning to think you're confused...

roger_merriman

lost_in_thought wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

I have to say, essex drivers are reallly good at passing kindly.

I live there a fair bit of the time, and people who've visited me have commented on just how good essex drivers are at giving cyclists more room.

Whether it's a case of familiarity breeding contempt, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you're onto something...

I wanted to burst out laughing! Sorry, but that's the complete opposite of every time I've ridden through there. London's good, Essex and esp. Epping Forest sucks, and then it gets good in Suffolk again. Admittedly I've only done that trip 5 times, but the contrast was noticeable each time.

OK, to be fair I'm not talking about the skanky area of essex - I live on the suffolk border. I've never really been to the london end of essex, but round my way the drivers are great. Couldn't ask for better.

EDIT: London's good? I'm beginning to think you're confused...

some areas of london are worse than others but on the whole london is poor.

BentMikey

London is an absolute cycling paradise. We don't appreciate how excellent it is.

andyb78

@teagar: +1. Once you get into the centre of Cambridge you'd think it'd be better given the bollards, but then you have the taxi drivers and buses to contend with However I reckon about 70% of the cyclists I encounter don't really help themselves to be honest :shock: [/quote]

cee

i find that edinburgh is generally ok. some twunks but hey ho.

the amount of space thing is wierd...some seem to give loads, while others only inches....

I have started thinking recently that on a narrow road, with cars parked up both sides....that if motorists were to give enough space so that they could avoid the classic door zone, then the whole street would be gridlocked.

my latest thinking is that no wonder motorists drive closely to cyclists...they drive closely to other parked cars all the time. I feel part of this mentality is the doing of the councils by putting parking pays on roads that are too narrow to have the space and for a passing car to give it even 1 foot of room without crossing into oncoming traffic....especially when the same is true for cars coming the other way.

It seems that roads which used to be one nice wide carriageway are now bus lanes plus a lane, and others have parking bays or loading areas....narrowing the whole lot.

number9

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

There is a theory - and it is only that - that increasing the number of cyclists on the road improves safety as drivers become more familiar with them and start to look out for them more.

I have to say that my experience of cycling in London suggests that as drivers get more used to cyclists they actually take more chances. Oh look, a space that isn't quite big enough for a bike and a car but hey, I'm in a car so here goes....

I was out in Essex at the weekend and noticed that most cars actually followed the advice in the highway code and crossed into the far lane to pass me (most of the time). There were even quite a few times when I could hear the car behind and thought there was sufficient room to pass - I'd even edge over to the left a bit - but the driver would wait until the oncoming lane was clear and then pass me. I actually found it quite disturbing!!! My experience in London - even the more outer London boroughs - is that if a car has to wait more than a few seconds it is revving and honking.

So - given the forum has reps from cities, towns and rural, what is your experience. Is the critical mass theory of safety improvement wrong?

It's not a theory at all, it's a fact!

Safety in numbers: more walkers and bicyclists, safer walking and bicycling
P L Jacobsen

Conclusion: A motorist is less likely to collide with a person walking and bicycling if more people walk or bicycle. Policies that increase the numbers of people walking and bicycling appear to be an effective route to improving the safety of people walking and bicycling.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/con ... rt/9/3/205

More cycling is making UK roads safer
Oct 20th
CTC has welcomed news that an increase in cycling has made it safer to cycle on UK roads.
Basing its figures on Department for Transport statistics, CTC estimates that cycle use in the UK has increased by 10 per cent since 1993, and that the rate of reported pedal casualties has decreased by more than 34
per cent over the same period.

Roger Geffen, CTC campaigns and policy manager, said:

"The relationship between increased cycle use and reduced cycle casualties found in mainland Europe also holds for Britain - the more people that cycle, the safer it is to cycle."

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/news/22045/Mor ... oads-safer

The more people cycle, the more aware drivers become and the safer the roads are for cyclists.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/n ... /4188.aspx

CYCLING MAKES ROADS SAFER!

Recent statistics gathered throughout the UK confirm that an increase in cycle use leads to safer roads. Apart from the fact that drivers who also cycle tend to be more aware of other road users, more cyclists on the road ensures that even drivers who don't cycle are more likely to expect the presence of cyclists, motorcyclists and pedestrians.

http://www.cyclingscotland.org/didyouknow.aspx


After all, the more people who take up cycling, the safer it will be for all road users, not just for cyclists – hence the conference title:

“Safer Cycling = More Cycling = Safer Cycling = More Cycling = Safer Cycling = More Cycling .....”

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4802

Perception is a big problem here," says Wilson. "Unsurprisingly, many people think cycling is dangerous but it has been proved that the more cyclists there are on the road, the safer it is per cyclist. Drivers get used to them."

http://motoring.independent.co.uk/featu ... 088929.ece

Cycle journeys in the capital have risen by 100 per cent since 2000 and have met the Mayor Ken Livingstone's cycling targets five years early.

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_rel ... aseid=5944

So a doubling in eight years.

And the accident rate?

In cities where cycling levels are very buoyant such as York and London, cycling is getting safer. Cycling in London has doubled in 5 years, and the numbers killed have dropped by almost 50 per cent since the mid-90s.

A statement from CTC said: "It is important not to take single years in isolation as fluctuations can happen when small numbers are concerned. Since the mid 90s the number of cyclists who have been killed or seriously injured has fallen by 37 per cent - from 3,732 to 2,360 per year."

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/news/19243/Adu ... ities-down

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112034.htm

International research reveals that as cycling participation increases, a cyclist is far less likely to collide with a motor vehicle or suffer injury and death - and what's true for cyclists is true for pedestrians. And it's not simply because there are fewer cars on the roads, but because motorists seem to change their behaviour and drive more safely when they see more cyclists and pedestrians around.

Studies in many countries have shown consistently that the number of motorists colliding with walkers or cyclists doesn't increase equally with the number of people walking or bicycling. For example, a community that doubles its cycling numbers can expect a one-third drop in the per-cyclist frequency of a crash with a motor vehicle.

"It's a virtuous cycle," says Dr Julie Hatfield, an injury expert from UNSW who address a cycling safety seminar in Sydney, Australia, on September 5. "The likelihood that an individual cyclist will be struck by a motorist falls with increasing rate of bicycling in a community. And the safer cycling is perceived to be, the more people are prepared to cycle."

Experts say the effect is independent of improvements in cycling-friendly laws such as lower speed limits and better infrastructure, such as bike paths. Research has revealed the safety-in-numbers impact for cyclists in Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, 14 European countries and 68 Californian cities.

"It's a positive effect but some people are surprised that injury rates don't go up at the same rate of increases in cycling," says Sydney University's Dr Chris Rissel, co-author of a 2008 research report on cycling.

"It appears that motorists adjust their behaviour in the presence of increasing numbers of people bicycling because they expect or experience more people cycling. Also, rising cycling rates mean motorists are more likely to be cyclists, and therefore be more conscious of, and sympathetic towards, cyclists."

Safety concerns are among the most significant barriers preventing Australians from cycling, including among those who cycle regularly, according to the report, titled Cycling: Getting Australia Moving. Despite this, over 1.68 million adults cycled in 2006, an increase of almost 250,000 since 2001. During this period, Australian capital cities experienced an average 22 percent increase in bicycle journeys to work. The city of Melbourne led with a 42 percent increase, while the city of Sydney lagged the field with a nine percent increase. 2006 figures reveal that 12,132 Sydneysiders cycle to work.

Dr Rissel says transport authorities should highlight the fun, convenience and health and environmental benefits of cycling, rather than what he views as an undue emphasis on danger and safety messages, which can deter cyclists: "We should create a cycling friendly environment and accentuate cycling's positives rather than stress negatives with 'safety campaigns' that focus on cyclists without addressing drivers and road conditions. Reminding people of injury rates and risks, to wear helmets and reflective visible clothes has the unintended effect of reinforcing fears of cycling which discourages people from cycling."

Aidy

I reckon it's just that London drivers are bad, it's not that they're familiar with cyclists.

Everyone's too impatient to get places in what's normally a situation pretty close to total gridlock. I see cars squeezing through all kinds of impractical gaps, jumping lights, and all in all, acting like muppets.

I was driving through London a little while ago, and another driver decided that rather than back up (or allow me to back up), by far the best method was to scrape the side of his car alongside mine to get past.

number9

The inevitable conflict of humans competing for a limited resource in London is acute, but I would see more aggression and confrontations on public transport than I did on the roads.

The Chingford Skinhead

Clever Pun wrote:

TCS.... your experiences of cycling in london during the week perchance? during rush hours?

people are generally much more polite on the weekend as they're up to something nice rather than heading to work

This might be quite a contributing factor here rather than just location

Fair point CP but my cycle in Essex started in Central London and almost all of the elbow brushes, both of the parked car door swung open and both of the left hook attempts that happened to me and the guys I was with happened in Central to East London.

However, my general perception of driver contempt probably is developed through commute cycling. Though my closest shave - some gimp in a 4x4 passing me up a very steep hill (and I was struggling) was on a Sunday. How he didn't hit the car coming in the opposite direction god only knows.

The Chingford Skinhead

number9 wrote:

It's not a theory at all, it's a fact!
...

Thanks for your lengthy post. I'll make an effort at the weekend to read it all and the various links. I won't pre-judge my reading but I was told (and I'll try and find the source) that the Evidence is met with counter-evidence - a bit like the whole cycle helmet safety / greater danger scientific debate.

Cheers again.

BentMikey

errr no, safety in numbers is pretty much uncontestable.

Your uphill overtake sounds a bit like this one of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_nsvXWCnds

roger_merriman

BentMikey wrote:

errr no, safety in numbers is pretty much uncontestable.

Your uphill overtake sounds a bit like this one of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_nsvXWCnds

indeed but to work it needs enough people cycling even in central london bikes are a very low % of total traffic out in the outer edges it's quite frankly just noise in the stats.

while london traffic is in most parts used to bikes it's also in a rush and as a trend drives in a selfish and unthinking manner.

The Chingford Skinhead

BentMikey wrote:

errr no, safety in numbers is pretty much uncontestable.

Your uphill overtake sounds a bit like this one of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_nsvXWCnds

I'll do my best at the weekend to see where I heard the alternative views.

My overtake was on a much narrower road, really steep and the oncoming car had to slam on its brakes due to the prat passing me. I liked your videos though. Pretty good camera

SmellTheGlove

BentMikey wrote:

London is an absolute cycling paradise. We don't appreciate how excellent it is.

Most of my commuting is around North Circular part of London; when I do head for the centre, I generally feel the way BentMikey describes it. Maybe it's the novelty but it's like I own the place.