No prison for driver who caused death of Hereford cyclist

megilleland

From the Hereford Times this weekend

No prison for driver who caused death of Hereford cyclist, Christopher Staunton
7:00am Friday 20th November 2009

A motorist who caused the death of an elderly Hereford cyclist will not be sent to prison.

Magistrates accepted that Rebecca Nicholls suffered a “momentary lapse of concentration” when she struck Christopher Staunton on Holme Lacy Road in July. The 24-year-old, from Woking, Surrey, was sentenced at Hereford Magistrates last week after she admitted causing death by driving without due care and attention.

Mr Staunton, aged 80 and from Redhill, was not wearing a helmet and suffered fatal head injuries after the collision near a roundabout. Prosecutor Max Bennett told a previous hearing that Nicholls did not see the cyclist and was heard saying “what have I done?” to witnesses after the accident.

Magistrates heard a family tribute last week, describing Mr Staunton as a fit man who preferred cycling to driving.

Nicholls was fined £2,500 and disqualified from driving for 18 months. She must also pay costs of £85 and a £15 victim surcharge. Hereford magistrate Nick O’Sullivan said to Mr Staunton’s family: “The bench is extremely sorry for you to find yourself in these most unfortunate circumstances.

“But the case before us is a matter of justice. We’ve considered our guidelines and have determined this was a momentary lapse of concentration.”


YOUR SAY Your Herefordshire
old guy, ledbury says...
7:04pm Fri 20 Nov 09

Did not see the cyclist!!!! So its OK to run over people because you aren't concentrating!! Everyone should ride a bike in traffic, then they would be more aware of how stupid drivers are when they are near cyclists - this sentence sends out all the wrong messages.

Maybe other cyclists would like to make a comment on this case?

Porgy

I hope she has to think about that man every day of the rest of her life.

I hope she is confronted by his family to justify why she thinks it's ok to NOT PAY ATTENTION whe it's someone else's life at risk.


In no other sphere of life in the UK is life so fu.cking cheap!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:


I would post comments under the story - but have no access to these things at work. :roll:

megilleland

Anyone have any idea what the victim surcharge of £15 is? How cheap is this?

spen666

megilleland wrote:

Anyone have any idea what the victim surcharge of £15 is? How cheap is this?

This is levied against everyone convicted of any offence in Mags court. It goes to pay for the CICA scheme.

The £15 surcharge is unrelated to the offence

ademort

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime.
Ademort

dilemna

ademort wrote:

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime.
Ademort

This is one of number of comments you have made giving the impression that the Dutch legal system is far more lenient toward drivers than that of the UK .................

Do we in the UK hold a false belief that the Dutch legal system is generally more considerate, protective and sympathetiic towards cyclists involved in collisions with motor vehicles?

The driver in this case was fined £2,500 which is comparatively high by other cases. Still not high enough £5k would have been more in keeping with what she has done. Her ban wasn't long enough, perhaps this was reduced given the size of her fine. It should have been 3-5 years. Presumably prison wasn't considered a suitable option.

Maybe she will be killed in an RTA in years to come. 8-9 people die everyday so she stands a good chance especially as she has form. That would be justice.

FJS

ademort wrote:

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime. Ademort

I believe you are probably right, although to put it in perspective more in general criminal courts in The Netherlands are more lenient and hestitant with prison sentences or heavy punishment, not just for traffic or cycling related incidents.

The particular legal protection of cyclists in The Netherlands mostly concerns civil law - liability for motorists. That well documented law isn't specific to cyclists by the way, it protects all those considered 'weaker' (non-motorised) in traffic agains motorised traffic.

And of course cyclists are protected in a non-legal way in The Netherlands through infrastructure and a dominance of cyclists in towns. The majority of the population are both cyclists and car drivers - you don't have the constant battle for the right to the road as here in the UK.

BTW, most people in The Netherlands would be similarly outraged as people here about the particular example of this thread, and the pathetic 'lapse of concentration' argument. But then, I believe a majority of the population is in favour of a return of the death penalty...

teagar

It's ealso easier to establish who was in the wrong in the Netherlands, since rights of way for vulnerable road users are much clearer - as I understand it.


I'm surprised this hasn't hit more headlines - its implications seem quite serious.

spen666

story in several of today's papers regarding man who killed 4 people whilst drink driving and wasn't jailed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1236144/Retired-policeman-killed-wife-daughter-drink-driving-crash-faces-court-verdict.html


Note this was not in England though!

[/quote]

ademort

ademort wrote:
Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime.
Ademort


This is one of number of comments you have made giving the impression that the Dutch legal system is far more lenient toward drivers than that of the UK .................

Do we in the UK hold a false belief that the Dutch legal system is generally more considerate, protective and sympathetiic towards cyclists involved in collisions with motor vehicles?
Yes you certainly do. In the Nethelands the punishments handed out for causing death on the roads are a joke. Usually a fine of around €3000 is about the average, a community service order around 120 hours and a driving ban which can be anything from 3 months to 5 years. Just look at the case of Footballer Patrick Klujvert and you see how pathetic the system is.As a cyclist in the Netherlands your life, should you ever be killed by a driver whose drunk does not stop after the accident and hides from police is worth only as much as i,ve described above. As much as i love to live in the Netherlands i hate the justice system. The penaltys handed out for all types of crime are a disgrace, shockingly low and of no comfort to the familys of any victims. :evil:
Ademort

gabriel959

Doesn't seem to be any better anywhere else.

dennisn

I don't doubt that she had a laspe of concentration. I think we all have at one time or another(or lots of times). There are a lot of things your mind needs to process while you're driving and only in a perfect world does this happen all the time. No one goes out with the idea that they are going to hit someone or something, but I always seem to fall back on the old saying "what can happen, will". I feel for everyone involved. It's sad.

FJS

Without implying that justice has been done in the case of this thread, I really do not think the penalties contribute much to safety on the road.

While there's some truth in what Ademort writes, I felt 10 times safer riding a bike in The Netherlands than I do here in the UK.

downfader

http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/lette ... _her_dad_/

A family response

dilemna

I think his daughter raises a number of genuine issues that courts still fail to address. Why wasn't she able to read out a victim impact statement? Did the local police or CPS over look this?

dilemna

gabriel959 wrote:

Doesn't seem to be any better anywhere else.

Not in Guatemala City it isn't ........ armed robbers are dealt with severely.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... h-mob.html

ademort

FJS wrote:

Without implying that justice has been done in the case of this thread, I really do not think the penalties contribute much to safety on the road.

While there's some truth in what Ademort writes, I felt 10 times safer riding a bike in The Netherlands than I do here in the UK.

I would agree that i feel safer riding a bike in the Netherlands than the uk. However when a cyclist is killed on the roads in the Netherlands and where the blame lies solely with the driver of the vehicle then the sentence handed out to that driver is far to lenient.While its fair to say that we all make mistakes and can have a lapse in concentration if that leads to the death of another road user then you should be punished accordingly.
Ademort

dennisn

FJS wrote:

ademort wrote:

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime. Ademort

.......... and the pathetic 'lapse of concentration' argument. ...

Are you saying that you have NEVER driven a car and gotten distracted, even for a second??? Never ridden a bike and made a judgement error or mistake that could have cost you your life???? You see, literally, EVERYTHING, going on around you while driving??? You've NEVER been behind the wheel(or behind the handlebars), got startled,
and said something like "whoa, I didn't see that car(or bike, or motorcycle, or truck,
even)"? You've NEVER almost taken someone out or got into an accident because your attention was on some other part of the road or another vehicle / vehicles? You've NEVER had a "lapse of concentration" EVER????? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Garry H

dennisn wrote:

FJS wrote:

ademort wrote:

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime. Ademort

.......... and the pathetic 'lapse of concentration' argument. ...

Are you saying that you have NEVER driven a car and gotten distracted, even for a second??? Never ridden a bike and made a judgement error or mistake that could have cost you your life???? You see, literally, EVERYTHING, going on around you while driving??? You've NEVER been behind the wheel(or behind the handlebars), got startled,
and said something like "whoa, I didn't see that car(or bike, or motorcycle, or truck,
even)"? You've NEVER almost taken someone out or got into an accident because your attention was on some other part of the road or another vehicle / vehicles? You've NEVER had a "lapse of concentration" EVER????? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I think that the salient point is that he has never actually killed anybody...

dennisn

Garry H wrote:

dennisn wrote:

FJS wrote:

ademort wrote:

Be thankful for what she got. In the Netherlands she would have got much less of a punishment for the same crime. Ademort

.......... and the pathetic 'lapse of concentration' argument. ...

Are you saying that you have NEVER driven a car and gotten distracted, even for a second??? Never ridden a bike and made a judgement error or mistake that could have cost you your life???? You see, literally, EVERYTHING, going on around you while driving??? You've NEVER been behind the wheel(or behind the handlebars), got startled,
and said something like "whoa, I didn't see that car(or bike, or motorcycle, or truck,
even)"? You've NEVER almost taken someone out or got into an accident because your attention was on some other part of the road or another vehicle / vehicles? You've NEVER had a "lapse of concentration" EVER????? :roll: :roll: :roll:

I think that the salient point is that he has never actually killed anybody...

I disagree. It's not the point. That he(or you or I) COULD kill someone in a mere second of "lapse...". That's the point. No one sets out to do this kind of thing, but we are human and make mistakes, sometimes with disastrous consequences for all involved. In your perfect world no one kills anyone, but the sad fact is that it happens and could happen to any of us. We could be either one of those people. To say that because someone hasn't had this kind of accident is above having one at some time in his life is foolish. You can throw the driver in the deepest of dark dungeons but it won't bring anyone back to life, nor stop it from happening again.
There will always be accidents(for lack of a better word).

kilo

[quote=I think that the salient point is that he has never actually killed anybody...[/quote]

I think the salient point is that she was not charged with an offence of being startled, distracted for a second or a momentary lapse of concentration she was charged with causing death by driving without due care and attention; driving that fell below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver in all the circumstances.

If it had been an understandable accident she would not have been charged. The investigation and desicion to charge will have been reviewed by the investigating officers, the CPS and possibly a prosecuting Counsel and all will have agreed her killing Mr Staunton wasn't an accident or the result of an understandable diversion of her attention onto another part of the road but the result of a failure to operate a car properly. For the CPS to even proceed with the case they would have been very confident that a prosecution would have been succesful and her actions, despite whatever mitigation b.s her brief will have come out with at trial, was well beyond a lapse of concentration.

megilleland

megilleland wrote:
Anyone have any idea what the victim surcharge of £15 is? How cheap is this?

Spen666 wrote:
This is levied against everyone convicted of any offence in Mags court. It goes to pay for the CICA scheme. The £15 surcharge is unrelated to the offence.

Further information reported in the Guardian today:

"People who commit minor driving offences and antisocial behaviour face paying bigger fines to fund a government scheme for compensating victims of crime.

Since 2007, a £15 surcharge has been added to fines for those convicted of crime, with the cash going to finance support services.

Ministers now want to extend the levy to on-the-spot fines and fixed penalty notices.

This would include motorists caught speeding, using a mobile phone while driving, not wearing a seatbelt, or anyone given a parking ticket, as well as those caught scrawling graffiti or being drunk and disorderly.

Under the plans, the current fine of £60 for speeding would be increased to £75.

In a parliamentary answer just before Christmas, justice minister Claire Ward said: "The victim surcharge was introduced on April 1, 2007 and has been applied initially only to fines imposed in magistrates and Crown courts at a rate of £15.

"We intend to add the surcharge to other disposals as soon as it becomes feasible to do so.

"Proceeds raised from the surcharge provide a ring-fenced source of funding for a wide variety of organisations providing non-financial support to victims and witnesses of crime."

Between April 2008 and last January the scheme raised more than £6.6m.

A Ministry of Justice spokesman said: "It is government policy that, where possible, offenders should contribute to victims and victims' services as part of their reparation.

Professor Stephen Glaister, director of the RAC Foundation, said: "You will have a hard job convincing motorists this is anything other than a stealth tax to shore up a creaking system strapped for cash.

"Motorists need to obey the rules of the road but they also have to believe the penalty for committing relatively minor offences is fair, and not just some arbitrary figure."

"If these offences have serious consequences then drivers will find themselves in court where a proportionate compensation figure can be set. More generally, if money needs to be set aside for victims then this should be coming out of the existing charges."

megilleland

Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.

priory

http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/news_1 ... eeding.asp

dennisn

megilleland wrote:

Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.

Are you saying that you KNOW she "intended" to kill this person. That is a whole other situation. Somehow I doubt she set out that day to "hunt down vermin cyclists".

megilleland

megilleland wrote:
Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.


Are you saying that you KNOW she "intended" to kill this person. That is a whole other situation. Somehow I doubt she set out that day to "hunt down vermin cyclists".

What do you mean by vermin cyclists? The standard of driving in this country is getting worse. Cyclists are getting killed nearly every week - yet the authorities learn nothing from these incidents to prevent the carnage and consequences for the bereaved family. It all gets brushed under the carpet.

dennisn

megilleland wrote:

megilleland wrote:
Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.


Are you saying that you KNOW she "intended" to kill this person. That is a whole other situation. Somehow I doubt she set out that day to "hunt down vermin cyclists".

What do you mean by vermin cyclists? The standard of driving in this country is getting worse. Cyclists are getting killed nearly every week - yet the authorities learn nothing from these incidents to prevent the carnage and consequences for the bereaved family. It all gets brushed under the carpet.

Was only trying to say that I doubt she went out hunting cyclists to kill.
Can't comment on the driving standards over there. Over here people get killed all the time out there on the roads. Maybe 50,000 a years die on the roads and highways. Some of them cyclist, some motorcyclists, truckers, pedestrians, drivers of all kinds. What would you have the "authorities" do? Jail everyone who ever made a mistake.
As for getting brushed under the carpet it would seem that this kind of thing really gets it's fair share of publicity over there(and here).
And in reality what's the difference if you(or I) make a mistake, run a stop sign, kill someone. Does it really matter if that someone was a cyclist, pedestrian, or another driver. You make it sound as if a cyclist were somehow "special" in this world.
Have you never gone to change lanes in your car and almost hit a car you didn't see right beside you?

ademort

dennisn wrote:

megilleland wrote:

megilleland wrote:
Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.


Are you saying that you KNOW she "intended" to kill this person. That is a whole other situation. Somehow I doubt she set out that day to "hunt down vermin cyclists".

What do you mean by vermin cyclists? The standard of driving in this country is getting worse. Cyclists are getting killed nearly every week - yet the authorities learn nothing from these incidents to prevent the carnage and consequences for the bereaved family. It all gets brushed under the carpet.

Was only trying to say that I doubt she went out hunting cyclists to kill.
Can't comment on the driving standards over there. Over here people get killed all the time out there on the roads. Maybe 50,000 a years die on the roads and highways. Some of them cyclist, some motorcyclists, truckers, pedestrians, drivers of all kinds. What would you have the "authorities" do? Jail everyone who ever made a mistake.
As for getting brushed under the carpet it would seem that this kind of thing really gets it's fair share of publicity over there(and here).
And in reality what's the difference if you(or I) make a mistake, run a stop sign, kill someone. Does it really matter if that someone was a cyclist, pedestrian, or another driver. You make it sound as if a cyclist were somehow "special" in this world.
Have you never gone to change lanes in your car and almost hit a car you didn't see right beside you?

Just wondering Dennisn why is it you always jump to the defence of these people. Have you or somebody close to you been involved in an accident.I cant help but notice this subject really strikes a nerve as far as your concerned
Ademort :?:

dennisn

ademort wrote:

dennisn wrote:

megilleland wrote:

megilleland wrote:
Unfortunately another twist on how to get off killing someone:
A woman driver who ran down and killed a cyclist with her luxury Range Rover walked free from court today after claiming she may have fainted at the wheel of her car.


Are you saying that you KNOW she "intended" to kill this person. That is a whole other situation. Somehow I doubt she set out that day to "hunt down vermin cyclists".

What do you mean by vermin cyclists? The standard of driving in this country is getting worse. Cyclists are getting killed nearly every week - yet the authorities learn nothing from these incidents to prevent the carnage and consequences for the bereaved family. It all gets brushed under the carpet.

Was only trying to say that I doubt she went out hunting cyclists to kill.
Can't comment on the driving standards over there. Over here people get killed all the time out there on the roads. Maybe 50,000 a years die on the roads and highways. Some of them cyclist, some motorcyclists, truckers, pedestrians, drivers of all kinds. What would you have the "authorities" do? Jail everyone who ever made a mistake.
As for getting brushed under the carpet it would seem that this kind of thing really gets it's fair share of publicity over there(and here).
And in reality what's the difference if you(or I) make a mistake, run a stop sign, kill someone. Does it really matter if that someone was a cyclist, pedestrian, or another driver. You make it sound as if a cyclist were somehow "special" in this world.
Have you never gone to change lanes in your car and almost hit a car you didn't see right beside you?

Just wondering Dennisn why is it you always jump to the defence of these people. Have you or somebody close to you been involved in an accident.I cant help but notice this subject really strikes a nerve as far as your concerned
Ademort :?:

To be honest I'm only defending them because I know people can make mistakes. It's not possible to avoid these things. I'm a firm believer in this is NOT a perfect world. These things happen to people for whatever reason. There is always a cause and effect but to demand that people never make mistakes and demand that governments "do something"
is never going to work. People are going to die for any number of reasons and you and I can't stop it.

pliptrot

The consequences of your actions should be considered in such situations - maybe we've all had "slips" but very few of us have killed people.

As for an American offering any defense of motorists, American drivers are among the worst in the world and are undoubtedly the most slipshod, inattentive and inconsiderate. What the authorities should do, DennnisN, is make you realize the importance of, and the responsibility that comes with, sitting at the wheel of a car. I've lived in Texas for 6 years and daily see driving the likes of which I've never seen anywhere else, and I've lived in Asia. If the Police had any direction at all it should be in improving road safety. But the attitiude is lax, like driving standards.

dennisn

pliptrot wrote:

The consequences of your actions should be considered in such situations - maybe we've all had "slips" but very few of us have killed people.

As for an American offering any defense of motorists, American drivers are among the worst in the world and are undoubtedly the most slipshod, inattentive and inconsiderate. What the authorities should do, DennnisN, is make you realize the importance of, and the responsibility that comes with, sitting at the wheel of a car. I've lived in Texas for 6 years and daily see driving the likes of which I've never seen anywhere else, and I've lived in Asia. If the Police had any direction at all it should be in improving road safety. But the attitiude is lax, like driving standards.

I disagree. Drivers in Mexico are the worst. Downright scary.

I'm impressed that you will never have, even a seconds bit of distraction from your driving. Never glance in one direction, turn your head back and say "Jesus, where did that guy come from". Never even been ALMOST in an accident because of your abilities as a driver. Never "just didn't see something". You're one in a billion.