10 years in prison for doping in Austria. Interesting...

Pokerface

CyclingNews reporting that the Austrian Parliament are looking to ratify a law that would allow for up to 10 years in prison for using PEDs in competition.

Not sure if it means ON Austrian soil or by anyone who IS Austrian - but a step in the right direction. Wonder if it will make a difference?


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/austria ... rison-term

disgruntledgoat

I wouldn't describe 10 years in prison for cheating at sport as a step in the right direction. Crazy over-reaction maybe...

Monty Dog

Expect to see a significant reduction in the performance of Austria's cross-country skiers and biathletes this winter then?

boneyjoe

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

disgruntledgoat

boneyjoe wrote:

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearence money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

nasahapley

disgruntledgoat wrote:

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearence money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

Very well said DG, especially the bit in bold. I really do think state governments have much more pressing things to worry about than criminalising people who cheat at sport - it ain't that important.

iainf72

It can be recognised as a crime but I don't think the thread of jail will make a bit of difference. Investigations by non-sporting bodies might have an impact though.

But we've seen recently in Germany what can happen when these things are treated as crimes.

Gazzaputt

disgruntledgoat wrote:

boneyjoe wrote:

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearance money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

Totally agree with you.

10 years for drug taking? Laughable. You get lees for murder in the UK.

andyp

nasahapley wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearence money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

Very well said DG, especially the bit in bold. I really do think state governments have much more pressing things to worry about than criminalising people who cheat at sport - it ain't that important.

The authorities main concern is the trafficing of black market drugs to fuel the demand created by athletes.

dave_1

the serious athletes will just move country....

Tom Butcher

I think it's fair enough that it's treated as a crime and there is a jail sentence available. Nobody is putting a gun to their heads and making them do it. It's a dangerous activity that people have died from - if anything more dangerous than most recreational drug use. It deprives people who don't want to do it of a fair chance to pursue their career. It devalues sport - something which a lot of money goes into.

10 years is perhaps a bit excessive but if people know they are going to spend 6 months or so inside I think that will act as a deterrent - enough are getting caught now that the prospect of that punishment would be real enough.

Monty Dog

If you look at it as fraud and deliberating deceiving others and taking the winner's earnings by nefarious means. Sadly, it's a well known fact you'll do a longer stretch for deception and fraud rather than a heinous crime such as murder or kiddy-fiddling.

disgruntledgoat

andyp wrote:

nasahapley wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearence money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

Very well said DG, especially the bit in bold. I really do think state governments have much more pressing things to worry about than criminalising people who cheat at sport - it ain't that important.

The authorities main concern is the trafficing of black market drugs to fuel the demand created by athletes.

I'm sure there are many excellent lawws to prevent that already. This just smacks of ill thought out, populist nonsense of the "march them to a cash point" variety.

nasahapley

Tom Butcher wrote:

Nobody is putting a gun to their heads and making them do it. It's a dangerous activity that people have died from - if anything more dangerous than most recreational drug use. It deprives people who don't want to do it of a fair chance to pursue their career. It devalues sport - something which a lot of money goes into.

Doesn't the first sentence here nullify the point of the second, though? It's true that doping can be dangerous, same as hang-gliding, horse-riding or smoking, but then as you say nobody is putting a gun to their heads to make them do it, so that's a pretty shaky reason for criminalising it IMO. I agree on the depriving honest competitors of a chance point, but I just don't see it as any business of the state to get involved; it should be up to sports' governing bodies (who actually make money from sport) to ensure as level a playing field as possible.

And as for devaluing sport - depends what you mean. I assume you mean that doping makes sport less lucrative since you've said the fact that a lot of money goes into it is relevant. I'm not sure about that at all - I think that the more physiologically improbable the athletic feats on display, so the more of a spectacle it is, so the more people watch it and the more money is made. You don't have too look far to find sports which are (allegedly) riddled with PEDs but which are still swimming in cash. It's only when you start making efforts to catch the cheats that sponsors get cold feet.

Tom Butcher

Yes but it might be thought that on balance horse riding, hang gliding etc are good things and that the risks are justified by the ends. There are many things that have been made illegal because they are seen as being too harmful - the closest parallel would be certain recreational drugs.

Governing bodies have tried to eradicate drugs - you could argue that more could be done but realistically I don't think they could catch many more (in cycling at least) which leaves sanctions as the next obvious line of attack - aren't they restricted to a 2 year ban in case of legal challenges ? So saying it's up to governing bodies is really just saying we have to accept the situation as it is.

Why don't you see it as the business of the state to get involved. The state puts a lot of resources into sport - we fund young talent and elite competitors - why should it not be the business of the state to see that competitors who wont cheat are not significantly disadvantaged ?

I don't accept that sport is more of a spectacle because of doping - it's the competition between competitors that creates excitement not the absolute level of performance. Is modern cycling or modern soccer more exciting than the 70s despite the absolute level of performance being higher - I'd say not.

Pross

I would jail the suppliers the same as drug dealers (that is assuming the drugs themselves are illegal of course). I suspect what this will mean is that some sports will move out of Austria. I want to see an end to doping as much as most people but having a sentence longer than you can get for serious crimes in this country is a bit of a stretch - noted that some will argue this is a result of our sentencing being too lenient in that department.

Murr X

I may be anti-doping but I am very strongly against this.

Not everyone may agree with me here but I personally feel and have for a long time that no punishments should be given to dopers that affects them out of sport. For instance an athlete should have to pay back their earnings if it is proven that they have doped during that particular time. BUT, in no way make them criminals for it or let it affect their or their families general life.

What happens in the case of a false positive? This kind of thing could make clean athletes worried and would make some say to hell with it its just not worth it to even try to be an athlete, very discouraging. What happens if someone sneaks for instance an ephedrine pill into your coffee or crushes it in over your breakfast before a race? How could you possibly prove that it was not deliberate doping on the athletes part? Nobody would ever believe their plea of innocence and for this reason alone doping should NEVER be a criminal offence.

How many sensible people would stick their job even if there was say a 1 in 250 chance of going to jail for 10 years for doing nothing wrong? It would scare the hell out of me and I'm probably not alone.

Its just not right IMO, just a case of the authorities trying to make themselves look good and trying to win brownie points at the expense of those who do not deserve it. They should probably not even be getting involved in such issues anyway but thats politics.

nasahapley

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yes but it might be thought that on balance horse riding, hang gliding etc are good things and that the risks are justified by the ends. There are many things that have been made illegal because they are seen as being too harmful - the closest parallel would be certain recreational drugs.

Governing bodies have tried to eradicate drugs - you could argue that more could be done but realistically I don't think they could catch many more (in cycling at least) which leaves sanctions as the next obvious line of attack - aren't they restricted to a 2 year ban in case of legal challenges ? So saying it's up to governing bodies is really just saying we have to accept the situation as it is.

Why don't you see it as the business of the state to get involved. The state puts a lot of resources into sport - we fund young talent and elite competitors - why should it not be the business of the state to see that competitors who wont cheat are not significantly disadvantaged ?

I don't accept that sport is more of a spectacle because of doping - it's the competition between competitors that creates excitement not the absolute level of performance. Is modern cycling or modern soccer more exciting than the 70s despite the absolute level of performance being higher - I'd say not.

Good points all. I don't really agree with them though , and I can see that you're not going to agree with me either as we're starting from two pretty different places.

As far as I'm concerned what people put in their own bodies, whether harmful or not, should be entirely up to them, and nothing to do with the state. Of course sporting governing bodies can make whatever rules they like about what you can and can't use if you want to pursue a career in their particular sports, but if they're going to make those rules then it should be up to them to police them. As for the role of the state in funding sport, I rather think it should be limited to stuff like making sure schools have adequate sporting facilities (e.g. playing fields), and that everyone has the opportunity to use decent leisure facilities should they wish, rather than being in the business of buying medals at the olympics and helping people earn a living from sport. I expect I'm in the minority here, but I really don't get excited knowing that someone who happens to have been born on the same jiggly-shaped land mass as me has won the 100m or whatever.

And your argument about competition v. absolute level of performance making a sport exciting and lucrative - it's a bit of both, and depends on the sport, surely. Mens sprinting doesn't seem to have been done much harm by the emergence of Usian Bolt! If the level of performance is irrelevant, then why do we have professional sportsmen at all? You can get close racing at any level (and I can't comment on 70s sport, too young!) I'm certainly not saying that doping necessarily makes sport more exciting and lucrative, but it doesn't hurt either.

Kléber

Some sensible comments so far*.

Remember, they have the death penalty in many US states. This is the ultimate penalty but homicide rates remain very high. A ten year stretch for doping may not deter some. But we'll have to wait for the details on this. I doubt the athletes will be liable for a long stretch.

Personally, I'd like to see some criminal sanction in some cases... but with a focus on those who facilitate and administrate doping. Take the cases in Puerto, Fuentes remains untroubled yet some riders have been banned. There is surely scope to suggest those running the doping schemes get punished, often their activities are totally legal. Often only the rider gets a sporting sanction.

But we've seen plenty examples of riders risking their health. Those running doping programmes are administering medicines without prescription, they are exceeding the recommended doses and they are not explaining the risks to the riders. Often the guys are flaunting a lot of medical rules and they are making a lot of money from a practice that's unethical and immoral. There's a case to criminalising these practices.

But the risk is Austrian politicians are reacting to particular stories about cycling and cross-country skiing, a new set of laws in one country won't do much to reduce the scope of doping and the quack medicine behind it.

* I've been avoiding this forum for a while partly because of the quality of debate/humour at times.

Tusher

Prison is unpleasant- that's the entire point of it. It takes prisoners out of society, away from friends, family, work. Getting back into society afterwards rarely easy. Pro cyclists are at an age when marriage and young children feature- taking a father away from a child for ten years for a non-violent crime is inappropriate. And, as has been pointed out, the burden of proof would have to be high.

I personally rate doping and fraud as very similar, and I feel that although there should be high penalties for proven doping , a ten year stretch is too much. I like the idea of repaying salary- which is on a sliding scale, and I would not object to a very short prison term- eg 6 weeks. But not ten years.

Ten years for managing a doping programme though is different. People have died through doping, either through health problems in later years or in their sleep. I'm certainly not absolving the athletes from blame, but I would rather see the doctors and drug smugglers go down.

dennisn

boneyjoe wrote:

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

FWIW we have the death penalty here in the States. People still kill people. It's against the law to do a whole lot of things for that matter, but people still commit crimes.

mididoctors

its fraud for financial profit... so why not jail time... 10 yrs looks a tad excessive IME but its their country

mididoctors

disgruntledgoat wrote:

boneyjoe wrote:

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

To my mind they're not crimes. They're breaches of the rules of a sport. Your employer, who presumably contracts you to be within the rules, can fire you for breaking them, organisers can demand their prize/appearence money back (if the contract you signed was good enough) but aren't we taking sport just a weeny bit too seriously when throwing people in jail for cheating at it? Where does it stop? Diving footballers? Cricketers giving information to betting rings?

hmmmm yeah on the other hand you have made some good points...

the difference between doping and other sport infringements is adjudication is immediate or near immediate...

if a guy dives or fouls in footie the ref either sees it or not and sanctions the player


if columbia high road spread themselves all over the front of a sprint the commissaries are there handling out fines and penalties


OTOH

doping or even match fixing is in a different time zone and undetectable to the eye as it where? its off the pitch/playing field/road (did you see what I did there 8) )

mididoctors

Dave_1 wrote:

the serious athletes will just move country....

already do rreally

depends on where the crime is committed I guess more than where someone is from

If france had such laws not being french doesn't count if you get caught mid tour... jail time

Pokerface

It's interesting how many people here are against doping, but when faced with some REAL penalty for it, seem to think "it's not that bad".

FWIW - I doubt you'd see anyone getting the full 10 years for the crime. Just like most crimes/punishments on the books - there is a maximum penalty there that is rarely ever handed out. The reality is usually something far less.

disgruntledgoat

Pokerface, I'm anti doping because I want a fair sport. But to my mind there's nothing fair about jailing somebody for artificially enhancing their performance.

Look at it at the most base, selfish level... It costs a lot to send somebdoy to prison and there are a finite number of places. Do you think this a good use of those resources? What useful purpsose does it serve, these people are dangers only to themselves adn the only real risk is misappropriation of organisers/employers funds through bad faith (plus the idea of organisers coming over all huffy about doping after the manner in which they acted for most of the last 20 years...).

The only motive for this is revenge, and taht's very different from justice.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

It's interesting how many people here are against doping, but when faced with some REAL penalty for it, seem to think "it's not that bad".

FWIW - I doubt you'd see anyone getting the full 10 years for the crime. Just like most crimes/punishments on the books - there is a maximum penalty there that is rarely ever handed out. The reality is usually something far less.

Where do you draw the line? Is cutting off someones hand or arm the APPROPIATE punishment for stealing or injecting drugs in their arm???? Is loping off someones head
really the way to go??? In some countries - YES - they think it is. Does it work? Probably a little, but you still hear about people being taken to the chopping block.

Pokerface

I guess you can have a huge debate about legal ethics and crime and punishment - and debate the relative merits of various laws and their respective punishments.

Additionally - you'd have to study the true effect that doping has on sport - and how artificially enhanced performances effect both those that use the drugs, and those that suffer as a result of it (from the users themselves, right down to those that lose out because they ride clean, but don't succeed because they are being beaten by a doper).

I'm sure the action is meant to act as a deterrent. And I imagine it would deter SOME people who were on the fence. It wouldn't stop the hard-core doper.

Lots of much smarter people than me have no doubt put a lot more thought into this already.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

boneyjoe wrote:

Its about time these activities are properly recognised as crimes - its really no different to theft or fraud imo - perhaps the prospect of being locked up will deter a few more people.

FWIW we have the death penalty here in the States. People still kill people. It's against the law to do a whole lot of things for that matter, but people still commit crimes.

I agree with you FWIW Dennis i am strongly againt the death penalty have been since i was of an age to have an opinon on these things, but i agree crimes will be committed regardless of the penalties involved if the perps think they can get away with it. Still think taking PEDs is no way a custodial offence a total over reaction to what is still a minority offence .Save custodial offences for crimes against the person ,hate crimes serious financial offences and being a Rangers fan

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

It's interesting how many people here are against doping, but when faced with some REAL penalty for it, seem to think "it's not that bad".

FWIW - I doubt you'd see anyone getting the full 10 years for the crime. Just like most crimes/punishments on the books - there is a maximum penalty there that is rarely ever handed out. The reality is usually something far less.

Where do you draw the line? Is cutting off someones hand or arm the APPROPIATE punishment for stealing or injecting drugs in their arm???? Is loping off someones head
really the way to go??? In some countries - YES - they think it is. Does it work? Probably a little, but you still hear about people being taken to the chopping block.

IMO Capital punishment is a reflection of the society in which it is practised.

micron

10 years is the maximum sentence isn't it? Presumably there's a sliding scale for first offences? Whilst a 10 year sentence for a first offence smacks of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, this is the way the world is going - WADA are pushing for the UK to criminalise doping in sport ahead of the 2012 Olympics but you can bet that the pressures from the big money sports like football will keep it off the agenda. But I agree with Tusher, at some point sporting fraud has a nasty habit of tipping over into something more serious like the death of an athlete and, like it or not, fraud and crimes against property have always been regarded as more serious than crimes against the person.