4'th place in the Tour

iainf72

I was talking to someone about people who've come 4'th in the Tour and took a look to see how many of them moved up a position. Sastre, Ullrich and Evans did, and Perico as a previous winner, but a lot of guys seem to peak at 4'th.

I think under the right circumstances Wiggins could go a bit better than 4'th but the lessons from recent history is it's not that easy... All classy riders though.

90 Delgado
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
93 Mejía
94 Leblanc
95 Jalabert
96 Dufaux
97 Olano
98 Rinero
99 Dufaux
00 Moreau
01 Kivilev
02 Botero
03 Hamilton
04 Ullrich
05 Mancebo
06 Evans
07 Sastre
08 Vandevelde * Or Menchov, depending if you move him up
09 Wiggins

top_bhoy

Not forgetting Robert Miller in 1984...no disgrace to be KoM and 4th in GC behind Fignon, Hinault and Lemond. A vintage year!!

I could be wrong, my instinct is that Wiggins will not improve on 4th and that subsequently will turn out to be his best ever placing.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

I was talking to someone about people who've come 4'th in the Tour and took a look to see how many of them moved up a position. Sastre, Ullrich and Evans did, and Perico as a previous winner, but a lot of guys seem to peak at 4'th.

I think under the right circumstances Wiggins could go a bit better than 4'th but the lessons from recent history is it's not that easy... All classy riders though.

90 Delgado
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
93 Mejía
94 Leblanc
95 Jalabert
96 Dufaux
97 Olano
98 Rinero
99 Dufaux
00 Moreau
01 Kivilev
02 Botero
03 Hamilton
04 Ullrich
05 Mancebo
06 Evans
07 Sastre
08 Vandevelde * Or Menchov, depending if you move him up
09 Wiggins

Robert Millar...mugged more or less by Delagdo and his gang at 85 Vuelta and 2nd at 1987 Giro...4th in the TDF means it is poss Wiggo will podium somewhere. When you look at Wiggins hanging on to lead group in the Giro 09 in the first two mountain stages...and then right up the front at the TDF...looks like his confidence has increased...the fitness jump between hanging on the back of a 20 man lead group at the Giro and leading in the top 5 in TDF mountains in certain stages is huge...IMO Wiggins self-belief must be higher...how else could he improve so much in a month assuming he is clean...which I reckon he is

shinyhelmut

It certainly seems based on next year's tour route he's going to need to make another big step forward even to regain 4th place. He's going to need his climbing legs come July....

spanielsson

This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:

It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!

I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.

I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already.

jocksyboy

don't forget Lance is past master at PR. so don't believe everything you read...
Wiggins is technically not at his peak yet.

Having said that as ever it will be down to 3 weeks in July next year

spanielsson

jocksyboy wrote:

don't forget Lance is past master at PR. so don't believe everything you read...
Wiggins is technically not at his peak yet.

Having said that as ever it will be down to 3 weeks in July next year

I agree with everything you have said, but it can be a psychological disadvantage that makes or breaks someone.

William H

Wiggins has raced a lot more than Lance since the Tour

Jez mon

Wiggins had a heard long season, he knows his body well and I doubt that the bender will have an impact come July, in fact he probably has to let off steam. Lance is someone who consistently tweets when he is training. Wiggins doesn't tweet constantly but that doesn't mean he isn't training...

The post does point out a definite problem, once you've come in 4th people see you as a guy who can go for GC and mark you and treat you as more of a threat. There is also more pressure. Moreau is someone who has been the great French hope but has never really done anything spectacular, lets hope that Brad doesnt become the British version.

frenchfighter

Interesting observation.

Echo et les Boniments

Jez Mon, Moreau has never been the great French hope. He was a very good rider who happened to be the only GC French rider the local media could talk about. Nobody in France ever thought he was going to win the Tour and, well, that's nobody including Moreau.
The guy was almost 30 when he took 4th place in the Tour. Then he got himself a couple of nice contracts and made sure they included a bonus should he make the Tour Top 10 again. It kind of became a running gag in France, Moreau only aiming for the Top 10 from the very prologue, not even dreaming of the yellow jersey on the Champs-Elysées and mostly interested in faring better than the guys behind him in the classification. How do you say "gagne-petit" in English?

Wiggins is also 29 and came 4th in the Tour this year, but that's about the only things the two have in common. Wiggins isn't the great British hope,he is already a star. He's an olympic gold medalist and can be totally dedicated when he wants to (least we can say about him,)
He's brash and ambitious and he will cope with more pressure the way he copes with Roubaix cobbles: fearlessly.

Also he's part of a team with a great reputation (like, "Festina" isn't his middle name). Really, when Moreau came 4th nobody thought he could he'd become a Tour contender. As for Wiggins, mmm, the sky's still the limit.

GroupOfOne MkII

Echo et les Boniments wrote:

Wiggins is also 29 and came 4th in the Tour this year, but that's about the only things the two have in common.

Both rode for a team that got booted out of the Tour for doping? Sorry, couldn't resist that one :oops:

teagar

spanielsson wrote:

This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:

It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!

I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.

I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already.

I think the Lance "I train more than everyone else", mantra is a bit of a myth.

Sure you don't want to do an Ulle and have start the training early enough so that you don't get ill etc, but doing more than anyone else just ends in over-training.

http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrenn ... hourenhout

The big news in cyclo-cross in belgium this week. Vanthourenhout has been training too much!

intothe12

iainf72 wrote:

91 Mottet
92 Hampsten

these guys would have no doubt moved up further if we had not have entered the dark ages.... pity, always thought mottet in the RMO jersey was a class rider, same with hampsten.

nick hanson

spanielsson wrote:

This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:

It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!

I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.

I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already.

Fully agree with you
I've said it before,& as much as I rate Wiggo,he needs to respect his body more
Pro or not,addictive behaviour like he seems to have (certainly re the drink) won't do his career any favours (or his health)
At the moment he'll probably pi** himself over comments like this,& be surrounded with plenty of 'yes' men,but in the long run,he needs to look at his family history (Sorry,& NOT trying to cause offence,but addictive personalities are often hereditary)

Meds1962

Went to a talk given by David Brailsford last night, he was saying Wiggins weight loss for the Tour was down to very specific diet that got his body fat down to about 4% but put his immune system right on the edge which could have caused problems.

Hopefully he can better 4th but brilliant as that performance was, I wonder what he can do to achieve that given that this sort of prep is pretty extreme. No doubt Andy Schleck and AC go to similar lengths to achive maximum power / weight ratio but they have that extra gear to drop the rest when it counts.

jerry3571

I'm sure Contador is real worried about Lance putting the miles in already. All Contador needs to do is do a few thousand miles; hit the beach for week then win a 3 week stage race. No worries!
-Jerry

Ps- I think time is the only answer with Wiggo. Head is one thing and his body is another. Takes both to win. Will be interesting watching though.
Wish he would try to win a few smaller stage races and then progress from there. Seems riders now are put in 3 week Tours without the proper build up. Needs to win a few events first.

dave_1

intothe12 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

91 Mottet
92 Hampsten

these guys would have no doubt moved up further if we had not have entered the dark ages.... pity, always thought mottet in the RMO jersey was a class rider, same with hampsten.

Mottet had bad days at TDF 87-Ventoux,88, 89-stage Fignon won... never did Mottet have it to go three weeks without a bad day like Lemond, Fignon, Delgado. Not really got much to do with drugs IMO. Mottet came 4th in 1991 TDF a year after saying he had given up ever winning GC and was riding for stages in 1991-he'd had a bad 1990 TDF... much like Cunego has just said about his 2010 season.

Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example.

andyp

Dave_1 wrote:

Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example.

*cough* 1988 Giro *cough*

jerry3571

I read Paul Kimmages book years and years ago and I think he said Mottet would hardly touch a Vitamin pill let alone anything worse ( I read this ages ago so facts may be a bit wonky). They said he could win 7-10 day races but the testosterone needed for a good 3 week Tour would be waning by the 2nd set of Mountains; Mottet, at this point, would start to struggle without using additional interventions.

Somewhat like Mr Wiggo; maybe a good sign for our chap being dope free as well at Mr Mottet!

A nice thought indeed.

-Jerry

dave_1

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example.

*cough* 1988 Giro *cough*

ok, forgot that..Hampsten was great then, god knows why he took years to get back to 4th at TDF in 1992-was gutted seeing Bugno overhaul him in the final TT 92 and with hindsight..Bugno isn't a hero perhaps? ...so really, from the English speakers being 4th at the TDF means aim for the Giro or Vuelta win.

Echo et les Boniments

In 1992 Andy came 4th, 13minutes and 40 seconds down on Indurain. 13 minutes, that's more or less what he lost during the prologue, the TTT and the two overlong individual time trials. So maybe the trouble with Hampsten (or Millar, or Herrera who actually won the Vuelta once for that matter) was they were first and foremost mountain specialists and, well, patently limited when it came to deliver the goods in a long, flat time trial. Wiggo's case is different.

intothe12

Dave_1 wrote:

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example.

*cough* 1988 Giro *cough*

ok, forgot that..Hampsten was great then, god knows why he took years to get back to 4th at TDF in 1992-was gutted seeing Bugno overhaul him in the final TT 92 and with hindsight..Bugno isn't a hero perhaps? ...so really, from the English speakers being 4th at the TDF means aim for the Giro or Vuelta win.

Hampsten IMO was pure class, as was mottet (i also read the kimmage book that said that after more than 10 days he would go like a bag of spanners - pity), hampsten on the other hand was an extraordinary natural talent, with pure steel - hence while Kimmage was standing in the tunnel on the Gavio pissing into his hands to warm them up, Hampsten was up the road with Breukink winning the giro and taking 2nd on the stage.

Hampsten really did not like the 90's ....
interesting interview from march 09
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/andy-hampsten-interview
he talks in great detail about the lemond / hinault epic in 85 ( i had forgeotten he was on that team) also interesting is his comments on the start of the epo era

It was unhealthy I think, to even try to keep up with the pack in some of these early season races. The pack would just go so frickin' fast over climbs with guys like sprinters outclimbing stage racers who weren't at their peak form. It went from kinda embarrassing for a climber to "Man, I'm pushing myself so hard in February and March that I'm overtrained to try to keep up in races.