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Why won't my Orange 5 go round corners!!

richcliprichclip Posts: 19
edited November 2009 in MTB general
Evening All,

My first post! I'm hoping for a bit of advice on why my shiny new Orange 5 seems horribly light at the front, to the extent that I wandered off the track 3 times at Llandegla today and scared myself witless on the wet rocky bits. There was absolutely zero grip from the front wheel - I nearly came a cropper about a dozen times on wet rocks as the front slipped sideways.

I've done the same ride on my Merlin hardtail without similar problems, but have had my fillings shaken loose! I've also been round a few times in the dry on the Orange without any problems. Could it be a tyre issue? It felt more like there was no weight at the front, but I haven't adjusted anything since I last rode there, and I was consciously trying to put more weight forward.

Hope somebody can help as it really knocked my confidence and I've been gloomy ever since. :cry:

cheers,

Rich
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Posts

  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Which year frame is it?

    The very newest ones have a slacker head angle which can cause a bit of front end wander.

    What you need to do is get more weight over the front.

    And yes, some tyres are poor in the wet.
  • robertpbrobertpb Posts: 1,866
    You maybe sitting further back on the 5 compared to the Merlin so you have less weight over the front wheel.

    What tyres and psi are you running.

    With wet rocks sticky rubber works better especially as it gets colder.
    Now where's that "Get Out of Crash Free Card"
  • Thanks for the ideas chaps. It is brand shiny new still, so I guess the '09 frame. It's got Continental Mountain King 2.2 tyres, which I was intending to change to Kenda small block 8's like my Merlin, but I thought I'd wait until spring.

    I was running at about 45psi, but when I hit the first downhill rocky bit and nearly wet me keks I dropped to about 30 psi. Didn't seem to make much difference at the front.

    I was making an effort to transfer weight forwards where possible, but to no avail.

    Rich
  • stevet1992stevet1992 Posts: 1,502
    Have you tried turning the handle bars ? :lol:

    Sorry im being of no help :twisted:
    On-One 456 Sainsburys Season

    Calling All SouthEastern Riders
  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    What sort of Mountain Kings? The standard ones (ie not Supersonic or Protection) are pretty horrible. Even the "good" ones are only average but the cheap ones aren't much cop at all.

    Not that small blocks are going to be any better this time of year, mind... Something like a highroller or nevegal or somesuch would make sense.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    Sounds like you need to consciously put your weight over the front of the bike, and push the bars down into the corners.

    A hardtail is fine for llandegla, they're some of the smoothest trails I've ever ridden :?
  • Given that you say you've been around in the dry with no problems I'd guess it was your tyres rather than your technique.

    I recently got myself a Zesty after owning a GT Avalanche - I had similar problems when I first went out. I think half the problem is that you enter stuff MUCH quicker so there is more forces acting on the front wheel as it undergoes braking/cornering, etc. I ended up getting myself a new front tyre and it has improved things but just be aware of your speed if you're not having too much fun! I'm now pretty used to the speed and handling of the bike (and I've have improved my technique) so it's no longer an issue.

    Technique wise it is a new bike so it will take you a little while to get used to it - you say you were scared on the wet rocks so subconciously you may have shifted your weight back? I found that, moving to a full suss, I would sit down more when I got tired - not an issue most of the time but make sure you are out of the saddle for anything technical (sorry if I'm telling you stuff that's REALLY basic but you never know...). I never used to sit on my hardtail as I used to hammer it :)

    I'm getting out of that habit now you'll be pleased to know.

    Finally, I did a skills course recently and it has boosted my skills/speed/confidence no end. I'd recommend one if you feel you're struggling to progress after taking everyones advice - can't hurt. Mine was with Cycleactive and I'd recommend them.

    Best of luck,

    James
  • To agree with supersonic and yeehaamcgee, yep, you need to get your weight forward a bit more. Some people do it without conciously thinking about it, other people seem to be locked into a riding position that works on a previous bike.

    The idea that for downhills you get your weight back is kind of not enough info. You want your weight roughly perpendicular to gravity, whatever the slope, but this will change according to the head angle. In practice, a racy XC bike will need you to be right off the back on a less steep slope than on a DH bike. This also really only applies to tech, rocky stuff as if the slope is smooth, you aint going to fall of the front of the bike however steep it is.

    For steppy rocky stuff there's a bit more to it than that, but I'm gonna stop here before this post goes on forever in, my usual style...
  • rhyko7rhyko7 Posts: 781
    orange 5's are nicely ballanced bikes, im gonna go out on a limb here and say its either the rider-sorry but this is probably the most likely cause. or if its not that then its either tyres, stem length, or fork setting. with good forks and correct setting you can weight the front tyre a lot more than you probably are for better grip

    switchback18 "You want your weight roughly perpendicular to gravity,"
    this is physically impossible-einstein would kick your censored for saying that! sorry but thats in the top 10 BS statements ive heard on here!
    Dont look at it-ride it! they are tools not f*cking ornaments

    my riding:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/rhyspect

    Some of my Rides Data/maps:
    http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/Users/527337
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    But they just changed the geometry!
  • rhyko7 wrote:
    orange 5's are nicely ballanced bikes, im gonna go out on a limb here and say its either the rider-sorry but this is probably the most likely cause. or if its not that then its either tyres, stem length, or fork setting. with good forks and correct setting you can weight the front tyre a lot more than you probably are for better grip

    switchback18 "You want your weight roughly perpendicular to gravity,"
    this is physically impossible-einstein would kick your censored for saying that! sorry but thats in the top 10 BS statements ive heard on here!

    Don't get what's hard to understand about that! To put it another way, imagine walking down a slope, you want to be upright, not leaning back into the slope, or forward down the slope, but inline with the pull of gravity. Maybe perpendicular is the wrong word?

    But this does make sense, this is the way taught by SMBLA courses, top riders etc.

    Thinking about it I used the wrong word, perpendicular would be at right angles to gravity, whereas I meant inline with gravity.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    if you were riding the same bike on the same trail with the same tyres and the only difference was the wet/dry situation, i'd wager its more to do with your tyres than technique.

    My recommendation is a specialzed eskar sworks. Ive ridden them on wet and dry rocks and in a bit of mud and ive liked them every time.

    There is a slight caviat to my advice though, im dead heavy so dont go that fast. Also, im dead heavy so for me, pretty much all tyres grip in all conditions.
  • rhyko7rhyko7 Posts: 781
    Thinking about it I used the wrong word, perpendicular would be at right angles to gravity, whereas I meant inline with gravity.[/quote]
    :lol:

    dont worry i was just playing with you, i know what ya meant, i was being a c*nt
    Dont look at it-ride it! they are tools not f*cking ornaments

    my riding:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/rhyspect

    Some of my Rides Data/maps:
    http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/Users/527337
  • Thinking about it I used the wrong word, perpendicular would be at right angles to gravity, whereas I meant inline with gravity.

    rhyko7 wrote:
    :lol:
    dont worry i was just playing with you, i know what ya meant, i was being a c*nt

    Ha, I did A-level physics as well. Well I did about 6 months of it...
    I think this was more a lack of English...

    But no worries, you're allowed to have a go at someone who teaches bike skills for a living..!
  • tlw1tlw1 Posts: 18,857
    supersonic wrote:
    But they just changed the geometry!

    agree

    \when I got my p7 last year had the same problems & until I got more weight over the front I didn't rate the bike.

    It was also at Llandegla that I managed to change my riding style & fell in love with the bike
  • scale20scale20 Posts: 1,300
    Pesonally I wouldn't go shelling out on new tyres just yet, get out riding the bike more and gain more confidence, the orange will be a totaly different ride to tthe merlin. The mountain kings should be fine on the Llndegla trails. I have found them to be an excellent tyre for the front wheel, but not the best on the back.
    Niner Air 9 Rigid
    Whyte 129S 29er.
  • dave_hilldave_hill Posts: 3,877
    To put it another way, imagine walking down a slope, you want to be upright, not leaning back into the slope, or forward down the slope, but inline with the pull of gravity. Maybe perpendicular is the wrong word?

    So if you're walking up a slope you don't lean forward? And if you're walking down you don't lean back? You must spend a lot of time on your @rse then!!
    Give a home to a retired Greyhound. Tia Greyhound Rescue
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    JayPic
  • ^yeah you do lean forward to go up and backwards to go down

    but we all know what he means...

    you adjust your body position so your centre of gravity is always on a vertical plane
    that point just moves further back or forward depending on the angle of the slope
    Carerra Fury 08
  • ^yeah you do lean forward to go up and backwards to go down

    but we all know what he means...

    you adjust your body position so your centre of gravity is always on a vertical plane
    that point just moves further back or forward depending on the angle of the slope

    Thank you, I think that's what I said... I never meant you stay at 90 degrees to the ground, that would be rubbish. Another way to think of it is that your body stays still & the bike pivots under you.

    Everyone's always got what I meant before..!

    ...waits for further confusion.
    dave_hill wrote:
    So if you're walking up a slope you don't lean forward? And if you're walking down you don't lean back? You must spend a lot of time on your @rse then!!

    Yeh, you don't lean any further forward or backwards than the vertical pull of gravity. It makes sense if you draw it. Not if I draw it though, as even my stick drawings are unintelligible..
  • richclip wrote:
    Evening All,

    My first post! I'm hoping for a bit of advice on why my shiny new Orange 5 seems horribly light at the front, to the extent that I wandered off the track 3 times at Llandegla today and scared myself witless on the wet rocky bits. There was absolutely zero grip from the front wheel - I nearly came a cropper about a dozen times on wet rocks as the front slipped sideways.

    I've done the same ride on my Merlin hardtail without similar problems, but have had my fillings shaken loose! I've also been round a few times in the dry on the Orange without any problems. Could it be a tyre issue? It felt more like there was no weight at the front, but I haven't adjusted anything since I last rode there, and I was consciously trying to put more weight forward.

    Hope somebody can help as it really knocked my confidence and I've been gloomy ever since. :cry:

    cheers,

    Rich

    wierd... i was at llandegla saturday morning experiencing the same problem with the same tyre! my brand new shiny bike was on its first ride with 2.4 mountain king supersonic on the front and it felt like i was riding round an ice rink! someone suggested i let some air out though because it was solid as a rock
    It`s changed a bit since...
    2010 Zesty 314
  • slimboyjim wrote:
    Given that you say you've been around in the dry with no problems I'd guess it was your tyres rather than your technique.

    I recently got myself a Zesty after owning a GT Avalanche - I had similar problems when I first went out. I think half the problem is that you enter stuff MUCH quicker so there is more forces acting on the front wheel as it undergoes braking/cornering, etc. I ended up getting myself a new front tyre and it has improved things but just be aware of your speed if you're not having too much fun! I'm now pretty used to the speed and handling of the bike (and I've have improved my technique) so it's no longer an issue.

    Technique wise it is a new bike so it will take you a little while to get used to it - you say you were scared on the wet rocks so subconciously you may have shifted your weight back? I found that, moving to a full suss, I would sit down more when I got tired - not an issue most of the time but make sure you are out of the saddle for anything technical (sorry if I'm telling you stuff that's REALLY basic but you never know...). I never used to sit on my hardtail as I used to hammer it :)

    I'm getting out of that habit now you'll be pleased to know.

    Finally, I did a skills course recently and it has boosted my skills/speed/confidence no end. I'd recommend one if you feel you're struggling to progress after taking everyones advice - can't hurt. Mine was with Cycleactive and I'd recommend them.

    Best of luck,

    James

    double wierd... i started last year on an avalanche and have just bought a zesty! :lol:
    It`s changed a bit since...
    2010 Zesty 314
  • colintravcolintrav Posts: 1,074
    richclip wrote:
    Evening All,

    My first post! I'm hoping for a bit of advice on why my shiny new Orange 5 seems horribly light at the front, to the extent that I wandered off the track 3 times at Llandegla today and scared myself witless on the wet rocky bits. There was absolutely zero grip from the front wheel - I nearly came a cropper about a dozen times on wet rocks as the front slipped sideways.

    I've done the same ride on my Merlin hardtail without similar problems, but have had my fillings shaken loose! I've also been round a few times in the dry on the Orange without any problems. Could it be a tyre issue? It felt more like there was no weight at the front, but I haven't adjusted anything since I last rode there, and I was consciously trying to put more weight forward.

    Hope somebody can help as it really knocked my confidence and I've been gloomy ever since. :cry:

    cheers,

    Rich

    Can you ride your bike in a circle in your back garden if yes what you complaining at then
  • NatoEDNatoED Posts: 500
    i've found my mountain kings top for wet stuff (but mine are 2.0 )
  • NatoED wrote:
    i've found my mountain kings top for wet stuff (but mine are 2.0 )

    what psi you runnin on?
    It`s changed a bit since...
    2010 Zesty 314
  • kopite1979 wrote:
    double wierd... i started last year on an avalanche and have just bought a zesty! :lol:

    Good taste :lol:
  • x-islex-isle Posts: 794
    I've got a 5 with the standard Kings.

    In this weather I have reduced down to 25psi (don't dare go lower) and makes a big difference.

    It could also be that your rear shock is too soft, meaning a lot of weight being transfered to the back.

    Just try fiddling with all the settings of the shock and fork along with the tyre pressures, and of course, getting some weight forward for grip.
    Craig Rogers
  • tompugtompug Posts: 227
    I find when loosing grip in mud, especially off camber corners to get on my tire edges as they get more grip (I run highrollers/swampys). Easiest way to do this is to get your knee out like they do in superbike racing, about 45-90 degrees and lean into the trail.

    this is the best pic I could find to demonstrate what I mean.

    032109paulturn.jpg
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    except you'r doing the exact opposite of a "superbike" lean :lol:
    EDIT: here's a pic to show what I mean by "opposite"
    100_No._9_.jpg

    you're leaning to the left, and leaning the bike to the right. In motorcycle racing, they lean the bike and themselves over int he same way.
    It's actually not as pronounced these days as it has been in the past.
  • rhyko7rhyko7 Posts: 781
    i agree with above, your leaning the wrong way, which makes you have to lean the bike the opposite way even more leaned over and increases the chances of you washing out

    put a super tacky high roller 2.35 on the front, it should help with your lack of cornering ability and give you some confidence to improve
    Dont look at it-ride it! they are tools not f*cking ornaments

    my riding:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/rhyspect

    Some of my Rides Data/maps:
    http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/Users/527337
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    rhyko7 wrote:
    i agree with above, your leaning the wrong way, which makes you have to lean the bike the opposite way even more leaned over and increases the chances of you washing out
    Actually I know what he's doing, and why.
    The side knobs on some tyres can produce excellent cornering traction, BUT, in order to use them, the bike has to be cranked over quite far into the lean.
    If you're not at a high speed, then you can't lean that far, so the solution is to lean your bike underneath you.

    I don't think you should be leaning so far in the opposite direction though :lol:
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