Dan Martin
Does anyone know why Dan opted to ride for Ireland? I hadn't realised until watching Lombardy that he is Neil's lad but as that's the case he would have been brought up in England. I realise his mum is Stephen Roche's sister and I have met both parents numerous times as they used to be regulars at our cycling club annual dinner but would have thought he'd have chosen GB over Ireland having grown up in the country. He would also, arguably, have better team support in the Olympics and Worlds as well as being a useful addition to our team.
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IIRC it was the very fact that he was not getting the necessary support from GB that he chose to represent Ireland. Team GB were focusing on the track and he felt he had a better chance to further his career with a team (country) that was fully focused on road racing.0
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Yep he certainly did grow up in England, around the Midlands I think. I remember him winning a couple of 3/4/J races I was at back around 03-04. I assume as he is considered a climber that BC weren't interested, hence the switch, shame really 'cos he is a classy rider as his recent result in Lombardy shows. In fact there were riders on the BC setup that got a place at the same time that didn't and haven't shown so much promise.0
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He's a climber and the BC plan didn't accomodate this, he could not be part of the pursuit squad. He made his own way to France to ride the hilly races.
As successful as it is, we can see the BC scheme has let Martin and Cav slip through its fingers.0 -
I'll give you Martin, but how did Cav slip through their fingers? He was part of Rod Ellingworth's development squad.0
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What, how did they let Cav slip through, he spent ages on the BC development squad?0
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it's a shame he's switched to Ireland...wonder if he'll end up at Sky in time once we see who handles to 2010 TDF best? Maybe Martin will eclipse Wiggo on the TDF GC next season?0
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Shame as we could have a good all round GB team. Maybe it's time for BC to expand it's input on the road given recent successes? The track expansion came on the back of Boardman and then the large group that came just after him (and due to a lot of input from Keen) so we need to build on the success of Cav, Wiggo et al.
Had my legs ridden off a few times by Neil Martin and he was even kind enough to get Roche out to give us a pasting one year too (made the mistake of thinking I could beat him up a hill as he'd put on so much weight :oops: )0 -
Cav was told he wasn't made for the road. He took it upon himself to join Team Sparkasse, to leave the GB set-up. That's what I have understood.0
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Cav was told he wasn't made for the road.
I don't know if thats true or not, but I know he spent a lot of time living and training in Manchester both track and road with the development squad. So to say he slipped through is a bit bizarre, because it is BC that gave him the equivalent of a cyclists university education.0 -
My point was that he did a lot on the track but just wasn't identified as the road talent he is. Not saying BC didn't help him, just that they wanted him on the track and didn't feel he'd cut it on the road.
Anyway, this is about Martin. The guy is a real talent and is very savvy too. To think Danielson has broken Armstrong's time on the Madone climb behind Nice... and that Martin has beaten Danielson's time for the local climb near Girona. He went faster than VDV and Wiggins too. Now he's top 10 in Lombardia in the first finish he's done.0 -
Kléber wrote:My point was that he did a lot on the track but just wasn't identified as the road talent he is. Not saying BC didn't help him, just that they wanted him on the track and didn't feel he'd cut it on the road.
Was it just his climbing/endurance that made them feel that way?0 -
My point was that he did a lot on the track but just wasn't identified as the road talent he is. Not saying BC didn't help him, just that they wanted him on the track and didn't feel he'd cut it on the road.
But thats very different from Dan Martins case, who had minimal input from BC as far as I'm aware. Although I suspect with his connections he's had some pretty decent advice over the years, which is lucky for him but others haven't been so fortunate.0 -
IIRC I read an interview with Cav where he said he didn't fully fit with BC because he didn't have the out and out top end power of the sprinters (I think he referred to Hoy) or the endurance of Wiggins. So he didn't fit neatly into a BC box, which is why he decided to focus on the road. I think he finished off by saying words to the effect that as it is that in between profile is great for the road as he can get to the finish where most out and out track sprinters couldn't but he has the power to out sprint the endurance guys. He seems to have made a good judgement call there eh!
No doubt things would have been different for Cav and Martin if BC had decided to develop the road squad earlier, but then timing is everything.
No different to the all the English riders who previously may have gone on to bigger and better things if the development funding had been there when they were in their prime, instead of having to rely on the "DHSS development plan"
Likewise I think I've read comments from Martin that confirms your points above i.e. he's a climber and BC weren't in the position to properly support and develop a climber at that time, they were really only focussed on the track squad0 -
Slow1972 wrote:No doubt things would have been different for Cav and Martin if BC had decided to develop the road squad earlier, but then timing is everything.
That seems to be the Learning Curve at BC when they realised what Cavendish had shown them that their program could be utilised for the Road.
I am confused :? here.
Is it BC now or is it Sky. ??
Is the BC management staying or moving to Sky. ??
There is Lottery money at BC and Sponsorship money at Sky Team.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I think Martin may have been just too early for the BC's decision to do something on the road coupled with his aversion to the track.
Cav's a different case really - always maintained a close relationship with BC and Ellingworth is still his coach (e.g. doing derny work with Cav to replicate the Milan-San Remo climbs early this season). He works with BC nutritionists, lives and trains with many of the riders on the development squad and came up through the U23 squad himself.
Here's a piece from Cycling Weekly last December which sort of explains what went on:
“I knew I was good at 14, so I planned to leave school at 16 and earn money. There was no Academy then, like there is now. You had to go away and do it yourself. You don’t get a pro contract from being a good junior; you get it from being a good amateur. So, I planned to work in a bank for two and a half years and then move away when I was 18.”
Working at Barclays Bank left little time for training but provided the savings to enable Cavendish to make his move to the continent.
However, the start of British Cycling’s junior Academy offered a different route to a pro contract. “Most of the people [at British Cycling] didn’t want me on that, but a couple did. Rod [Ellingworth] had seen me racing, and he said, ‘You have got to give him a chance.’ And they did, and it went from there really.”
Cavendish doesn’t hold back in criticising the rigid selection criteria applied by BC selectors at the time.
“They weren’t bike riders; they were scientists. I couldn’t qualify when I was 16 because selection then was based totally on numbers, rigs and indoor trainers.
“A static machine is not the same as an ordinary bike. It is to do with how you pedal. If you have got long legs, they act like levers, whereas with short legs, they are like pistons. Even when I was national champion, when I was 17, I couldn’t qualify for the Talent Team.”
The modern Under-23 Academy may be based in sunny Tuscany, but the early junior set-up was in rather less salubrious surroundings on the outskirts of Manchester.
“We were in Fallowfield, about 300 metres from the old track,” he recalls. “It was in-between student accommodation and corporation housing and was a pretty rough area. The house got burgled. We were there for a year. Then we moved to Stockport, and I was there for six months before Shane [Sutton] kicked me out of the house. Luckily, Craig MacLean said me and Ed Clancy could stay at his place, so we stayed there for the winter of 2005-2006.
“I was still on the junior team, but even then it was still about numbers. There were some people who knew about bike racing. Heiko Salzwedel said to me when I was 15, ‘You’re going to be the next Robbie McEwen.’
“He was in charge then, overlooking the whole programme, and he gave me a chance. Simon Lillistone and Marshall Thomas would say I couldn’t ride the Europeans, because I wasn’t producing the numbers, but Heiko would argue that it was not about numbers but getting the fastest riders.”
And Cavendish was certainly among the fastest riders, as he progressed from the GB Academy to a neo-pro contract with Sparkasse, to his first pro contract with T-Mobile.
Salzwedel’s brief period with BC ended with talk of clashes with riders, but Cavendish was not one of them. He is pleased the German is returning to the BC coaching set-up after a successful stint working with the Danish team.
“I get on brilliant with Heiko. He got me my contract with T-Mobile. We keep in contact all the time. I’m made up he is coming back to the federation. I have got a lot to thank him for.”0 -
i was just about to say that i think bc is too concentrated on numbers, and as cav has said many times passion and wanting to do it i sso much more important than figures, when i did a talent team test i got the equal highest score in guernsey but the other guy was younger so they took him to the next stage but he did not want to go any further with it so rather than telling them this he just didnt try, i made the mistake of thinking i knew better than them whilst no tunderstanding what cadence was it use the wrong gears forthe test, i am not saying i could have gone onto big things otherwise but think had dan martin not ha dthe relaions he has and had cav not been noticed by rod ellingworth they could be working in a bank rather than hitting it up in the pro tour, makes ou wonder if anyone else has slipped through, althoguh that said you cannot really faul tit as the track success has been outstanding0
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Dave_1 wrote:it's a shame he's switched to Ireland...wonder if he'll end up at Sky in time once we see who handles to 2010 TDF best? Maybe Martin will eclipse Wiggo on the TDF GC next season?
eh, no its not! Depends what side of the Irish sea you are. Up to this year Dan would have been seen as our best prospect but due injuries on his side and great preformances from N Roche & Deighnan he has taken a back seat. Its looking good for 3 Irish riders in next years grand tours thought0 -
Slow1972 wrote:IIRC I read an interview with Cav where he said he didn't fully fit with BC because he didn't have the out and out top end power of the sprinters (I think he referred to Hoy) or the endurance of Wiggins. So he didn't fit neatly into a BC box, which is why he decided to focus on the road. I think he finished off by saying words to the effect that as it is that in between profile is great for the road as he can get to the finish where most out and out track sprinters couldn't but he has the power to out sprint the endurance guys. He seems to have made a good judgement call there eh!
No doubt things would have been different for Cav and Martin if BC had decided to develop the road squad earlier, but then timing is everything.
No different to the all the English riders who previously may have gone on to bigger and better things if the development funding had been there when they were in their prime, instead of having to rely on the "DHSS development plan"
Likewise I think I've read comments from Martin that confirms your points above i.e. he's a climber and BC weren't in the position to properly support and develop a climber at that time, they were really only focussed on the track squad
surely this will change now as Sky can recruit direct e.g. if they ride in premiers like the downings, or in ToB, Tour of Ireland they will be picked regardless of track race results. Lots of Brits in pro teams abroad now so overall the system is working? between the early 90s, 1995 when there was only Boardman racing realy...Millar's team collapsed...then Hunt and Boardman,...how many now?0 -
The Sky set up is interesting as it's hard to know where BC ends and Sky begins. It's part-national team, part-media conglomerate trade team.
As for Martin, it doesn't really matter what licence he rides under as cycling isn't a sport where nationality matters. I think he's good friends with some of the Irish lads - he shares a flat with Deignan - from his days as an amateur at VC La Pomme in Marseilles, the old amateur team of Nicolas Roche too. So by family and friendship alike he knows the Irish lads well and it's no surprise he wants to race with them.0 -
Kléber wrote:The Sky set up is interesting as it's hard to know where BC ends and Sky begins. It's part-national team, part-media conglomerate trade team.
How is it a British team? That's what puzzles me. The "talent" is mostly from the continent, management Scandi-Australian, money multi-national.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:Kléber wrote:The Sky set up is interesting as it's hard to know where BC ends and Sky begins. It's part-national team, part-media conglomerate trade team.
How is it a British team? That's what puzzles me. The "talent" is mostly from the continent, management Scandi-Australian, money multi-national.
DB heads up the thing with yates by the sound of it...look at the way they were forced to sign Downing. IMO 10 or 15 years ago Downing may not have been signed abroad.0 -
Because it's got a lot of input from BC, a lot of the national structure is going into the team. The staff on the BC scheme will be closely linked to Sky, from nutritionists to admin. Sky sponsor the track team which is the pure national team.iainf72 wrote:How is it a British team? That's what puzzles me. The "talent" is mostly from the continent, management Scandi-Australian, money multi-national.
I'm a little confused as to where the boundaries lie between Sky and BC. Is Brailsford still part of BC or has he moved to Sky? etc
Nothing to do with Dan Martin...0 -
I'm a little confused as to where the boundaries lie between Sky and BC. Is Brailsford still part of BC or has he moved to Sky? etc
Me neither, and where does knowledge and tech transfer stop if BC want to maintain their dominance at the track in 2012?
I have to say I'm slightly uneasy about taxpayers money (directly or indirectly) being used to benefit an organisation like Sky. But then I think Rabobank run a similar setup in Holland, maybe others can provide more info?0 -
eh wrote:
I have to say I'm slightly uneasy about taxpayers money (directly or indirectly) being used to benefit an organisation like Sky.
is it just Sky you have an issue with? was it not BC nutritionists who helped Wiggins slim down for the tour, indirectly benefiting Garmin / Slipstream?0
