Wheel weights and Ti skewers

GavH

Been looking at new wheels recently. The amount of £s needed to shave a mere 100-200g off my current setup is frightening! 'Upgrading' my WH-R550s to new 2010 Mavic Aksiums would cost £162 and save only 50g. A pair of Easton EA70s would save closer to 200g but cost £300. Just how much of an improvement would a 200g saving make in terms of speed?

I've also came across Titanium QR skewers which weigh 46g per PAIR and cost £45. This isn't even a part I'd have even considered as a worthwhile upgrade! I have no idea how much my current skewers weigh but I'd guess the difference is perhaps as much as 80g. Are these worthwhile upgrades or does a lighter QR skewer mean very little?

ride_whenever

QR doesn't move, therefore weight off there is dead weight, weight from the outside of the wheel has an accelerating effect of around 2-3 times the mass loss from a non-rotating part.

Look and see where the weight comes from ,wheels is a better bet.

markos1963

I would say there is very little difference between Askiums and R550's in fact the 550's might be more aero anyway. As for skewers, whilst you might save save some weight it is better to save it from the rotating mass ie wheels, pedals, cranks

pianoman

Agreed.

Rotating weight and static weight are two different things - and also, weight saved from the outside (i.e. rim, tyres etc) is more valuable than weight saved at the hubs - then again, weight saved by having a lighter rim might also mean you lose stiffness.

If you really want to save "silly" weight like skewers, buy some carbon bottle cages - at least most of them also LOOK good too

ugo.santalucia

In terms of speed 200 g would leave you exactly where you are. In terms of vertical climbing speed, we are looking at around 1 meter per hour, more or less for the average climber... in other words you might get on top of the Tourmalet 10-15 seconds earlier.

Up to you to judge if it's worth the money you throw in. And remember that a good strong set of skewers is the difference between life and death on a fast, bumpy descent!

BTW: have you tried getting rid of 200 g around your waist? Remarkably it has the same minimal effect, but it costs nothing!

pianoman

That's another good point.

On the flat, you should go for aerodynamics and stiffness over weight every time. On climbs, shedded rotating weight does make some difference, but not as much as the difference between, for example, Contador and Hushovd (who can BOTH climb far better than 99.9% of human beings).

BTW: have you tried getting rid of 200 g around your waist? Remarkably it has the same minimal effect, but it costs nothing!

Don't get him started on that idea, fat burning pills are quite expensive :twisted:

dennisn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

In terms of speed 200 g would leave you exactly where you are. In terms of vertical climbing speed, we are looking at around 1 meter per hour, more or less for the average climber... in other words you might get on top of the Tourmalet 10-15 seconds earlier.

Up to you to judge if it's worth the money you throw in. And remember that a good strong set of skewers is the difference between life and death on a fast, bumpy descent!

BTW: have you tried getting rid of 200 g around your waist? Remarkably it has the same minimal effect, but it costs nothing!

+1 Lightweight skewers are for weight weenies and other posers.

chriskempton

If you want to save wheel weight cheaply, Planet X model Bs would save you about 230g and cost you £125.

They would make you go faster on the hills and on the flat (they're more aero as well).

alan_sherman

Do a weight saved vs £ spent spreadsheet if you really want to lose weight from your bike. KCNC skewers are ligth, strong and quite cheap so come out favourably.

Will they actually make a difference to your ride? No. Ride your current wheels until they die then get something new.

pianoman

Will they actually make a difference to your ride? No. Ride your current wheels until they die then get something new.

I think some wheel upgrades DO make a difference, for example the Campag Zondas I have are about 3kmh faster on average training rides than my Ventos (which have Stelvio tyres on as opposed to Ultremos).

But is it even relevant for winter and commuting? NO.

You could wait until next summer (when the exchange rate has hopefully started to slide back towards the pound) and get something like Fulcrum 5's. Then, stick some fast slicks on like I did and you'll be good to go and kick some ass in TT's :P

GavH

Thanks for the posts guys, ALL of which makes sense and one or two have even re-iterated what I've already thought - Lose weight over winter, trash my R550s in the process with lots of miles regardless of weather and then reward myself in the Spring! Cheers!

GavH

Just as an aside, do quoted wheel weights usually include the skewer weight or not? Just noticed on the Planet B website that they quote the skewer weight separate to the individual wheels. I always assumed the skewers were included in the figures given?

ugo.santalucia

GavH wrote:

Just as an aside, do quoted wheel weights usually include the skewer weight or not? Just noticed on the Planet B website that they quote the skewer weight separate to the individual wheels. I always assumed the skewers were included in the figures given?

You have an OCD about skewers' weight...

When I bomb at 45 mph down the Colle san Carlo there's nothing that makes me feel better than knowing that I fitted a pair of solid Shimano skewers! 8)

aracer

PianoMan wrote:

On the flat, you should go for aerodynamics and stiffness over weight every time. On climbs, shedded rotating weight does make some difference

On a climb shedding static weight makes just as much difference as shedding rotating weight. Rotating weight only makes more difference than static weight for acceleration, and despite popular opinion you use very little of your power on acceleration even when doing a crit. Of course as you mention, aero is more important than weight for most riding anyway.

top_bhoy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

GavH wrote:

Just as an aside, do quoted wheel weights usually include the skewer weight or not? Just noticed on the Planet B website that they quote the skewer weight separate to the individual wheels. I always assumed the skewers were included in the figures given?

You have an OCD about skewers' weight...

When I bomb at 45 mph down the Colle san Carlo there's nothing that makes me feel better than knowing that I fitted a pair of solid Shimano skewers! 8)

Looking at the Shimano skewers, is there much functional difference between Dura-Ace and 105 aside from perhaps weight and price! Saving 30g or 40g here is not hugely important to me, the wheel staying on the bike is. The 105s from CRC are 1/3 price of the Dura-Ace but if the difference between the pair is the wheel staying on or not, I'll go that bit extra.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=Shimano+Road+Skewers+

Anonymous

200g, get on a diet matey, losing pounds is cheaper than upgrading. Save your pennies and go for some bling in the spring.

top_bhoy

dmclite wrote:

200g, get on a diet matey, losing pounds is cheaper than upgrading. Save your pennies and go for some bling in the spring.

????...Being a bit lardy at the moment, a few grammes here or there is insignificant - this issue is not really about saving a few grammes on a set of skewers. I need a set of one or the other...just comparing the 105s to the Dura-Ace and whether the functionality was significantly better in the Dura-Ace to justify the extra cost. I don't smoke so I'd rather spent a bit extra on the important things ie keeping the wheel on the frame than spend it on cigarettes

redddraggon

chriskempton wrote:

If you want to save wheel weight cheaply, Planet X model Bs would save you about 230g and cost you £125.

They would make you go faster on the hills and on the flat (they're more aero as well).

P-Xs more aero than R550s, are you sure? R550s normally rate quite highly, especially considering their price.

markos1963

redddraggon wrote:

chriskempton wrote:

If you want to save wheel weight cheaply, Planet X model Bs would save you about 230g and cost you £125.

They would make you go faster on the hills and on the flat (they're more aero as well).

P-Xs more aero than R550s, are you sure? R550s normally rate quite highly, especially considering their price.

Love my R550's, great all round wheels. Mine are due for replacement soon and I will use that opportunity to upgrade them but certainly no regrets over them.

Monty Dog

I have a pair of ti skewers on one bike and frankly wouldn't notice the difference - except they need to be done up very tight. Some people suggest you don't put ti skewers on the rear because they don't grip the wheel firm enough.

Escargot

GavH wrote:

Just how much of an improvement would a 200g saving make in terms of speed?

In truth you will not see any perceptible speed differences whatsoever.

Rotating mass makes a difference when the masses are large but when you're talking about wheel masses, in comparison to the mass of the rest of the bike + rider then it makes hardly any difference whatsoever (you're talking about 1%).

People that make like for like comparisons often forget that many people will either use a heart rate monitor (in which case you will ride 1% harder to maintain your heart rate) or will ride 1% faster to keep up with your mates. Either way I very much doubt you will notice the difference.

Any improvements you notice climbing hills will undoubtedly be due to improved wheel stiffness whilst any on the flats will be due to improved aerodynamics.

As already mentioned it would be cheaper to lose 200g in body weight.

ugo.santalucia

Top_Bhoy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

GavH wrote:

Just as an aside, do quoted wheel weights usually include the skewer weight or not? Just noticed on the Planet B website that they quote the skewer weight separate to the individual wheels. I always assumed the skewers were included in the figures given?

You have an OCD about skewers' weight...

When I bomb at 45 mph down the Colle san Carlo there's nothing that makes me feel better than knowing that I fitted a pair of solid Shimano skewers! 8)

Looking at the Shimano skewers, is there much functional difference between Dura-Ace and 105 aside from perhaps weight and price! Saving 30g or 40g here is not hugely important to me, the wheel staying on the bike is. The 105s from CRC are 1/3 price of the Dura-Ace but if the difference between the pair is the wheel staying on or not, I'll go that bit extra.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/SearchResults.aspx?Search=Shimano+Road+Skewers+

The difference is cosmetic... the Dura Ace look a lot better, functionwise they're the same... do they have them in stock or just on the website?

top_bhoy

In silver, on they're respective websites, with CRC they're in stock...on Wiggle, only rear are in stock. I don't mind waiting until its in stock as its not urgent.

I've normally used CRC or Ribble in the past but I've started warming to wiggle recently with the free worldwide delivery on orders over AUD$90 (I think). Just bought a pair of LOOK Keo Carbon pedals for £69 - a bargain (I guess ), FSA Omega bars and green Swisstop brake pads. Hate to think what they'd cost here in Oz...at least double (probably more) than what I paid to wiggle.

giant_man

Top_Bhoy wrote:

In silver, on they're respective websites, with CRC they're in stock...on Wiggle, only rear are in stock. I don't mind waiting until its in stock as its not urgent.

I've normally used CRC or Ribble in the past but I've started warming to wiggle recently with the free worldwide delivery on orders over AUD$90 (I think). Just bought a pair of LOOK Keo Carbon pedals for £69 - a bargain (I guess ), FSA Omega bars and green Swisstop brake pads. Hate to think what they'd cost here in Oz...at least double (probably more) than what I paid to wiggle.

How did you get them from wiggle for £69 when they're advertised right now for £79?

ugo.santalucia

Top_Bhoy wrote:

In silver, on they're respective websites, with CRC they're in stock...on Wiggle, only rear are in stock. I don't mind waiting until its in stock as its not urgent.

I've normally used CRC or Ribble in the past but I've started warming to wiggle recently with the free worldwide delivery on orders over AUD$90 (I think). Just bought a pair of LOOK Keo Carbon pedals for £69 - a bargain (I guess ), FSA Omega bars and green Swisstop brake pads. Hate to think what they'd cost here in Oz...at least double (probably more) than what I paid to wiggle.

Mmmhhh... have you read "Waiting for Godot"?

It is extremely difficult to get hold of Shimano skewers... I always bought mine on E-Bay... now I've got a little surplus of them...

James_London

As has been said, this is all in the context of 100-200g making very little absolute difference on the flat or hills, however, since you asked...

Have you considered the weight of your tyres and tubes? 72g inner tubes like the Michelin A1s are a decent compromise between weight and durability. I haven't had good luck with the lighter 55g tubes though others might.

Tyres and tubes are a little more consumable than wheels and it's an easy experiment to try. That said, I choose my tyres based on many factors before considering their weight.

top_bhoy

giant mancp wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

In silver, on they're respective websites, with CRC they're in stock...on Wiggle, only rear are in stock. I don't mind waiting until its in stock as its not urgent.

I've normally used CRC or Ribble in the past but I've started warming to wiggle recently with the free worldwide delivery on orders over AUD$90 (I think). Just bought a pair of LOOK Keo Carbon pedals for £69 - a bargain (I guess ), FSA Omega bars and green Swisstop brake pads. Hate to think what they'd cost here in Oz...at least double (probably more) than what I paid to wiggle.

How did you get them from wiggle for £69 when they're advertised right now for £79?

No VAT to Oz

Cycling stuff here is generally far more expensive than in the UK. I'll never complain about the price of UK cycling kit again

top_bhoy

James_London wrote:

As has been said, this is all in the context of 100-200g making very little absolute difference on the flat or hills, however, since you asked...

Have you considered the weight of your tyres and tubes? 72g inner tubes like the Michelin A1s are a decent compromise between weight and durability. I haven't had good luck with the lighter 55g tubes though others might.

Tyres and tubes are a little more consumable than wheels and it's an easy experiment to try. That said, I choose my tyres based on many factors before considering their weight.

I never asked about saving 100-200g. Have you read the rest of the thread? If you have, you'll have seen that in my other posts its not about saving a few grammes here or there but whether the functionality was significantly better in the Dura-Ace to justify the extra cost. I'm not too fussed about the cosmetic difference either - from pics, the silver 105 is more than acceptable.

top_bhoy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

In silver, on they're respective websites, with CRC they're in stock...on Wiggle, only rear are in stock. I don't mind waiting until its in stock as its not urgent.

I've normally used CRC or Ribble in the past but I've started warming to wiggle recently with the free worldwide delivery on orders over AUD$90 (I think). Just bought a pair of LOOK Keo Carbon pedals for £69 - a bargain (I guess ), FSA Omega bars and green Swisstop brake pads. Hate to think what they'd cost here in Oz...at least double (probably more) than what I paid to wiggle.

Mmmhhh... have you read "Waiting for Godot"?

It is extremely difficult to get hold of Shimano skewers... I always bought mine on E-Bay... now I've got a little surplus of them...

Never read '"Waiting for Godot' but do I need to read it to find out why I can't buy Shimano 105 skewers?

tenor

I like this thread.
200 grams is indeed a paltry amount in performance terms, but if it were the extra 100 grams for a triple chainset most correspondants on this forum would be declaring this an unacceptable sacifice.
As has been noted by some, tyres and tubes would probably make the biggest difference to your ride for reasonable money. Pro Race 3's and a reasonably lightweight but robust tube in the 70 - 80g range would be a good starting point. Keep your current tyres for routine winter rides.
CW tested a load of wheels a year or two ago and the Campag Neutron came out the best - just in case you decide to invest in wheels a little later on...

balthazar

Top_Bhoy wrote:

I never asked about saving 100-200g. Have you read the rest of the thread? If you have, you'll have seen that in my other posts its not about saving a few grammes here or there but whether the functionality was significantly better in the Dura-Ace to justify the extra cost. I'm not too fussed about the cosmetic difference either - from pics, the silver 105 is more than acceptable.

It's probable that the comments you are bridling against, were intended not for you, but for the poster who originated the thread, in which the value of a small weight saving was put to question.