Is there such a thing as a just war?

fungus_the_muffin_man

I think the only war that could truely be justified would be the second world war. A war that started mainly due to the need to abolish fascism. Though at the time it started no one could have ever realised just what the nazi party really were about.

I think every other war has mainly started due to greed. Oh and religion ( and we all know how greedy religion is)

fast as fupp

only if its against them germans

Barrie_G

I think it's going to get a whole lot worse over the next decade or two, with the growing demand and falling levels of fossile fuels, which in turn will push up the price of food and most other essentials, the growing global population with ever increasing demands on a finite amount of resources, yep I can see things getting a whole lot worse in the not too distant future.

fungus_the_muffin_man

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

And the French! We don't half hate those bloody froggies. Coming over here destroying our saxon ways. And the bloody cowards didn't even put up a decent effort aginst the dirty krauts did they?

tebbit

The First World War, when they found out the Kaiser's war aims (after the war, the daft b*stard kept records) of reducing France and Belgium to peasant societies and removing all the heavy industry to Germany and dominating Europe and hence the world. Napoleonic wars trying to stop another maniac dictator taking over Europe in the name of the people, shouldn't we be saying "give war a chance?"

Or even Kill! Kill!

In the thirties that "great british institution" the daily mail ran an editorial "why I like facists" and the best letters to the editor got free tickets to see Moseley at Wembley, hence lots of letters from people wanting to get in to heckle Moseley (shooting him would have been better). One of the letters stated, "Sir I have a burning desire to die for my country and I believe that Mr Moseley offers me the best opportunity."

Sorry slightly off thread but apt and this is the Cake Stop after all.

So James Martin is a bit tame for the Daily Hate in retrospect.

DavidBelcher

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

And the French! We don't half hate those bloody froggies. Coming over here destroying our saxon ways. And the bloody cowards didn't even put up a decent effort aginst the dirty krauts did they?

You are The Pub Landlord, and I claim my beautiful British £5 ("It's not 5 Euros, is it? Back off, Brussels!").

David

finchy

Justification for war? Well, self-defence is one. As for going to another country to wage war, I suppose it would be justified if you were going to liberate people living under a government so terrible that war would be more humane, especially if they had no realistic chance of liberating themselves, and no other method could be used.

Obviously that's not a situation that is going to occur too often.

Anonymous

Just war, absolutely. Look at hstory, Britian answered the bugle after the Germans bombed Pearl harbour, we had no choice and now with all this so called "Global warming" scaremongering and green's bleating on about the Polish ice cap melting, dinosaurs waking up and being awful and everything, we should attack Greenpeace.

mercsport

johnfinch wrote:

Justification for war? Well, self-defence is one. As for going to another country to wage war, I suppose it would be justified if you were going to liberate people living under a government so terrible that war would be more humane, especially if they had no realistic chance of liberating themselves, and no other method could be used.

Obviously that's not a situation that is going to occur too often.

By those tenets, we Brit's are, surely, seeking succour from a liberating force. But,no, evidently it is not to be. Tony Blair ( by any accounting, a war criminal ) still struts and Gordon Brown still fidgets.

finchy

mercsport wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Justification for war? Well, self-defence is one. As for going to another country to wage war, I suppose it would be justified if you were going to liberate people living under a government so terrible that war would be more humane, especially if they had no realistic chance of liberating themselves, and no other method could be used.

Obviously that's not a situation that is going to occur too often.

By those tenets, we Brit's are, surely, seeking succour from a liberating force. But,no, evidently it is not to be. Tony Blair ( by any accounting, a war criminal ) still struts and Gordon Brown still fidgets.

I'm not a fan of Blair and Brown, but I'm not sure that the people of Britain are suffering from such terrible oppression that a war would be in our best interests.

Buckled_Rims

Wars are caused by leaders (political, business or sovereign) afraid of losing their power.

My belief is that for every hundred soldiers killed in a war, we should pull out a government politician, line him up against a wall and stone him/her.

Let's see if war is as popular then. :twisted:

Jez mon

tebbit wrote:

The First World War, when they found out the Kaiser's war aims (after the war, the daft b*stard kept records) of reducing France and Belgium to peasant societies and removing all the heavy industry to Germany and dominating Europe and hence the world. Napoleonic wars trying to stop another maniac dictator taking over Europe in the name of the people, shouldn't we be saying "give war a chance?"

So a German empire=evil. But a British Empire=good. [devil's advocate] Is that because the people we were exploiting were a different colour [/devil's advocate]. Ultimately the thing about history is that it is by and large the propaganda of the victors. I'm not trying to be one of those liberals who criticises the British Empire at every opportunity but I think we have to remember that we are only portrayed as the "goodies" (as opposed to the "baddies") because we won both World Wars.

Ultimately you can have a just war. Self defence, freeing people from slavery/horrific injustice both are good reasons. But the majority of Wars have not been about either and were about gaining strategic advantage. This isn't a valid reason to send young people to their death in my opinion.

teagar

There seems to be a silent reference point to Britain! "A just war [for Britain]". Any example given here is not an example of a just war, because the war was started for non-just reasons (whether it's fascist expansionism in Europe or Iraq invading Kuwait). You've just given reasons for Britian to join into a war.

I have no beef with anyone so as far as I'm concerned no war is a just war. If I did, i might answer differently!

finchy

djbarren wrote:

The Gulf War was the perfect just war. It was fought successfully under the UN rubric to restore peace by evicting the aggressor, and it restored peace without altering either the aggressor's or the victim's regimes.

What about the use of DU in the Gulf War? I hardly think any sane person would call that just.

Jez mon

teagar wrote:

There seems to be a silent reference point to Britain! "A just war [for Britain]". Any example given here is not an example of a just war, because the war was started for non-just reasons (whether it's fascist expansionism in Europe or Iraq invading Kuwait). You've just given reasons for Britian to join into a war.

I have no beef with anyone so as far as I'm concerned no war is a just war. If I did, i might answer differently!

So preventing the spread of fascism was not a just cause. Whilst history may be the propaganda of the victors, it's pretty damn hard to see the Nazis in anything approaching a positive light. Furthermore, Britain was at risk from invasion in WW2, should the country have rolled over to a regime which was incredibly evil.

The first Gulf War, now that's less black and white. The end result (one could argue) was the current Iraq War. It's proof that whilst the UNs guidelines for how and why a war should be fought sound good, they probably don't work out as the authors imagined.

crankycrank

The just war on ignorance and stupidity goes on at my workplace and cycling route every day. :twisted:

Anonymous

johnfinch wrote:

djbarren wrote:

The Gulf War was the perfect just war. It was fought successfully under the UN rubric to restore peace by evicting the aggressor, and it restored peace without altering either the aggressor's or the victim's regimes.

What about the use of DU in the Gulf War? I hardly think any sane person would call that just.

I was out there in 1991. i drove a flail hrough minefields and cleared IED's and Ordanance. The use of DU is entirely justifed against enemy armour when they could be throwing 120mm HE rounds at you. A different perspective comes with experience

Gotte

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

Anonymous

Gotte wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital? or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

Go and live out there then, matey. :roll:

Gotte

There is always cause for war. A military intervention by Nato in Rwanda would have been just, in my opinion.

Anonymous

Gotte wrote:

There is always cause for war. A military intervention by Nato in Rwanda would have been just, in my opinion.

No oil = no intervention.

softlad

Gotte wrote:

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

I think maybe you are confusing 'modern day' democratic Germany with the brutal fascist dictatorship which would have been in power had Hitler actually won...??

finchy

softlad wrote:

Gotte wrote:

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

I think maybe you are confusing 'modern day' democratic Germany with the brutal fascist dictatorship which would have been in power had Hitler actually won...??

WARNING: boring bit follows.

Gotte was talking about modern Germany, hence the use of the word "nowadays" and the second conditional (we'd be better off if we went to war and they won), indicating an unreal situation in the present time.

Gotte

softlad wrote:

Gotte wrote:

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

I think maybe you are confusing 'modern day' democratic Germany with the brutal fascist dictatorship which would have been in power had Hitler actually won...??

Errr, no. I wasn't talking about the Nazis at all. I was actually commenting the clarksonesque nature of Fast as Fupps post.

Gotte

dmclite wrote:

Gotte wrote:

There is always cause for war. A military intervention by Nato in Rwanda would have been just, in my opinion.

No oil = no intervention.

Exactly.

Gotte

dmclite wrote:

Gotte wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital? or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

Go and live out there then, matey. :roll:

Not the rolleyes...not the rolleyes. I'll be weeping into my pillow tonight with the loss of your approbation.

finchy

dmclite wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

djbarren wrote:

The Gulf War was the perfect just war. It was fought successfully under the UN rubric to restore peace by evicting the aggressor, and it restored peace without altering either the aggressor's or the victim's regimes.

What about the use of DU in the Gulf War? I hardly think any sane person would call that just.

I was out there in 1991. i drove a flail hrough minefields and cleared IED's and Ordanance. The use of DU is entirely justifed against enemy armour when they could be throwing 120mm HE rounds at you. A different perspective comes with experience

I'm not go to pretend that I'm an expert on weapons, so are there no alternatives to DU?

Something which isn't linked with numerous deaths in the following years? (Maybe including yet another generation of British soldiers to be stabbed in the back by successive governments)

Anonymous

johnfinch wrote:

dmclite wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

djbarren wrote:

The Gulf War was the perfect just war. It was fought successfully under the UN rubric to restore peace by evicting the aggressor, and it restored peace without altering either the aggressor's or the victim's regimes.

What about the use of DU in the Gulf War? I hardly think any sane person would call that just.

I was out there in 1991. i drove a flail hrough minefields and cleared IED's and Ordanance. The use of DU is entirely justifed against enemy armour when they could be throwing 120mm HE rounds at you. A different perspective comes with experience

I'm not go to pretend that I'm an expert on weapons, so are there no alternatives to DU?

Something which isn't linked with numerous deaths in the following years? (Maybe including yet another generation of British soldiers to be stabbed in the back by successive governments)

War is a bit of a dodgy business, if DU rounds are harder and more penetrating that sabot rounds etc then you take your chances. Soldiers get stabbed in the back, always has happened, always will. We were given all sorts of injections out there that are not on my medical record. Also we took NAPS and BAPS every day (sorry, Nerve Agent Pre treatment Schedule and Biologigal, etc) in tablet form for 3 months, Christ knows what was in them.

Anonymous

Gotte wrote:

dmclite wrote:

Gotte wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital? or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

Go and live out there then, matey. :roll:

Not the rolleyes...not the rolleyes. I'll be weeping into my pillow tonight with the loss of your approbation.

I do apologise for the rolleyes, it was a bit harsh, wasn't it ? Actually I do concur with modern Germany, I lived there for 5 years, very clean and nice. Awesome kebabs too, Gyros with fluffy bread and beautiful herby lamb......sorry, tangent over.

finchy

dmclite wrote:

War is a bit of a dodgy business, if DU rounds are harder and more penetrating that sabot rounds etc then you take your chances. Soldiers get stabbed in the back, always has happened, always will. We were given all sorts of injections out there that are not on my medical record. Also we took NAPS and BAPS every day (sorry, Nerve Agent Pre treatment Schedule and Biologigal, etc) in tablet form for 3 months, Christ knows what was in them.

The point I was trying to make is that even if DU did save a few lives on the battlefield, with the link to Gulf War Syndrome (which I believe, but am not 100% sure has been made in respected medical journals) and other health problems, surely even taking the civilian population out of the picture, DU would cost more allied lives than it would have saved?

I know that soldiers always have been stabbed in the back. My Grandad was in a Japanese POW camp, and when he got back to Britain he never got any help for the terrible mental scars he picked up from three years of brutality, malnutrition and disease. :x

Gotte

dmclite wrote:

Gotte wrote:

dmclite wrote:

Gotte wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

only if its against them germans

Nowadays, I think we'd be better off if we went to war and they won. Have you ever cycled in Germany, or seen the education a German chilld gets, or been to a German hospital? or taken your kids to a German park?

I'd also rather have my money in a German bank.

I could go on and on...

Go and live out there then, matey. :roll:

Not the rolleyes...not the rolleyes. I'll be weeping into my pillow tonight with the loss of your approbation.

I do apologise for the rolleyes, it was a bit harsh, wasn't it ? Actually I do concur with modern Germany, I lived there for 5 years, very clean and nice. Awesome kebabs too, Gyros with fluffy bread and beautiful herby lamb......sorry, tangent over.

Much appreciated. No offence taken. Where did you live in Germany?