Kohl vs Voigt

iainf72

Remember when a 6'4 man won the Tour of Germany on some really hard mountains?

Well, he's the subject of Kohl's next article in the Kurier. There is talk that people were using PFC and that CSC should've been renamed Team PFC.

leguape

PFC is?

Stuey01

Penile Friction Cream?

Python's Flying Circus?

Pessimistic Forum Contributors?

iainf72

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluoroc ... cial_blood

It's the stuff that put Gianetti in hospital

jerry3571

Wikipedia says about PFC -
"This led Leland C. Clark in 1966 to experiment with liquid breathing, resulting in the submersion of a mouse for several hours in an oxygenated perfluorocarbon."

I must admit to not seeing the Tour of Germany but I think Jens didn't climb with an upside down Goldfish bowl of PFC on his head. I think even Phil Liggett would have a job in covering up that one.
"Jens has grown wings and is flying up the Mountain! His new UCI approved helmet not seemingly hindering his progress. Surprising us are the mice within the bowl which are now doing the backstroke..well Paul, what would your "best freind" Lance say about all this..."

Sorry to Gianetti; poor taste indeed.

-Jerry

all show no go

More Wiki...
Due to perfluorocarbons size of 0.1 -0.2μm this enables the molecule to be present in the plasma gaps between erythrocytes in the microcirculation structures. These molecules are able to carry 40 to 50 times more oxygen than hemoglobin which is an advantage when oxygen supply to tissue by red blood cells is low due to acute anemia or hemodilution. Perfluorocarbons are most effective in small capillaries or blood vessels, where under normal circumstances blood cells would not be able to flow. PFC's can augment local oxygen delivery and increase the oxygen content in the arterial blood. All oxygen carried by perfluorocarbons is in a dissolved state which results in higher oxygen partial pressures, which in turn augments the driving pressure for the diffusion of dissolved oxygen into the tissue.[1]

Scary stuff, yet also genius at the same time. The advantages of using this PED are obvious. I presume it's on the IOC banned list but is it easily detectable in current doping tests?

jerry3571

It does help us answer how a big truck of chap drives the Peleton off his back wheel over the highest climb in any European Tour. The last time that happened was in the Giro where a Mr José Enrique Gutiérrez Cataluña (Phonak) took a second place overall and got a 2 year rest for his efforts (just read he wasn't banned but rested instead).
I wish if protour Teams, if doping, should at least try make it look convincing. Big guys do not go up hills fast and tiny guys don't ride at 55 km/hr for 50km (Heras Vuelta style).
It just looks dodgy. If you're going to cheat then make it look authentic at least.
I think Lucho Herrera retired thanks to big guys passing him in the big mountains; don't blame the guy.
Cheers Jerry

bipedal

could this also account for the recent astounding mountain performances of a certain rider with a well-endowed mandible?

Kléber

"Oxygent" is the preferred molecule. It's PFC in emulsion and is injected.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

"Oxygent" is the preferred molecule. It's PFC in emulsion and is injected.

Aha, I know who you are now.

Ciao Michele!

ozzzyosborn206

jerry3571 wrote:

It does help us answer how a big truck of chap drives the peloton off his back wheel over the highest climb in any European Tour. The last time that happened was in the Giro where a Mr José Enrique Gutiérrez Cataluña (Phonak) took a second place overall and got a 2 year rest for his efforts (just read he wasn't banned but rested instead).
I wish if protour Teams, if doping, should at least try make it look convincing. Big guys do not go up hills fast and tiny guys don't ride at 55 km/hr for 50km (Heras Vuelta style).
It just looks dodgy. If you're going to cheat then make it look authentic at least.
I think Lucho Herrera retired thanks to big guys passing him in the big mountains; don't blame the guy.
Cheers Jerry

i agree with you here, in the tour when vino doped he was nowhere then suddenly won, surely he would have been better off climbing back up the gc slowly, rather than win, get tested and get kicked out, i know for sure if i doped i wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary but by not going full gas you would save energy and be able to take little chucks out later on in the tour rather than a massive chuck in one stage which automatically causes raised eyebrows

Kléber

I worked for a small offshoot of well-known big pharma player, but only as a finance man. So I could help Michele manage all those US dollars he's earned from Armstrong but funnily enough I go faint at the sight of syringes. I could never have been a pro...

The start-up company was trying to find new ways to make blood donations last longer. Blood is often in short supply, there are not enough donations and the stored samples can only be kept for 42 days

There's a lot of pharmaceutical money chasing solutions. Products like Oxygent were created as artificial blood. Reinventing blood or finding ways to cure anemia are the stuff of "blockbuster" drugs but obviously they are also the choice of gourmet dopers.

For more on oxygent in particular, see http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.09 ... html?pg=10 .

As an aside, it's a modern version of Hemassist, a product created in the 1990s but which never passed its Phase III trials and so wasn't commercialised. Italian pro Dario Frigo apparently bought this but when it was seized by police in a raid during the 2002 Giro, the vials were found to contain saline. Cutting/switching the product isn't just something street drug dealers do.

leguape

iainf72 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorocarbon#Artificial_blood

It's the stuff that put Gianetti in hospital

I thought the whole Gineti thing had scared everyone off them. More stable and manageable variants now then?

deal

leguape wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorocarbon#Artificial_blood

It's the stuff that put Gianetti in hospital

I thought the whole Gineti thing had scared everyone off them. More stable and manageable variants now then?

a phase III trial of Oxygent was apparently halted due to an increase incidence of stroke, cant find much more information about it.

Read a couple of abstracts of a few journal articles and it seems the majority of these products are more risky than the product they are intended to replace - blood.

TheHog

iainf72 wrote:

Remember when a 6'4 man won the Tour of Germany on some really hard mountains?

Well, he's the subject of Kohl's next article in the Kurier. There is talk that people were using PFC and that CSC should've been renamed Team PFC.

Yeah I read that article. It's right here: http://kurier.at/sport/1944072.php#

It says that after the tour of germany in 2007 Kohl got drunk and having heard rumors that a new miracle drug (PFC) existed he yelled to the winner of the race Jens Voigt that his team should be called PFC instead of CSC.

I would say that's some pretty damning evidence. CSC should be suspended immediately and all their wins from 2007 untill now should be taken away from them.

weedy1

Funny enough the pharma plant where I work also tried to synthesize hemoglobin. The resultant 'blood' screwed a few older peoples kidneys up (for a while) so it got dropped.

They used a modified e-coli bacteria to grow the hemo in a vessel. It stank just like dogsh1t and looked like thick blood red dogsh1t. Horrible.

jocksyboy

he's 6'2" and only 76 KG, so quite possible that he can climb with Lance who is listed as 75KG ( oh no what have i done :roll: i mentioned him.....)

emadden

Kléber wrote:

As an aside, it's a modern version of Hemassist, a product created in the 1990s but which never passed its Phase III trials and so wasn't commercialised. Italian pro Dario Frigo apparently bought this but when it was seized by police in a raid during the 2002 Giro, the vials were found to contain saline. Cutting/switching the product isn't just something street drug dealers do.

If he bought some of the clinical trial materials there is a 50/50 chance that he bought the placebo (i.e. saline). The people running the trial (and hence selling the trial materials) would not know which vial contained the trial product or which vial had the placebo. Trials are "blinded" in their conduct. Only when the trial is finished and the data about to be analyed is the identity of the patients taking the trial product "unblinded"...

jerry3571

I'm sure someone in the Lab Team would have written down which one was the real drug and which one was placebo otherwise no one would know the end result
Also, I'm sure they had ordered a bit more in case of future testing and analysis; maybe have a few extra boxes in the stock room. These boxes probably have got a sticker on each box with names such as Fido, Rover, Benji etc.
I've heard it said that about 70-80% of all drugs manufactured in the world go elsewhere than to official Health Care bodies. I suppose narcotics and the supply Professional Cycling Teams would be the main exponents. The latter being the greatest share of course.Ha! Ha!
-Jerry

Le Commentateur

jocksyboy wrote:

he's 6'2" and only 76 KG, so quite possible that he can climb with Lance who is listed as 75KG ( oh no what have i done :roll: i mentioned him.....)

75kg now perhaps, but he was averaging 71kg when he won the tour in his prime years around 2001.

eh

So is there a PFC drug on the market that would be suitable for doping? Or would any rider taking it be getting some dodgy clinical trial version?

sward29

jerry3571 wrote:

I'm sure someone in the Lab Team would have written down which one was the real drug and which one was placebo otherwise no one would know the end result
Also, I'm sure they had ordered a bit more in case of future testing and analysis; maybe have a few extra boxes in the stock room. These boxes probably have got a sticker on each box with names such as Fido, Rover, Benji etc.
I've heard it said that about 70-80% of all drugs manufactured in the world go elsewhere than to official Health Care bodies. I suppose narcotics and the supply Professional Cycling Teams would be the main exponents. The latter being the greatest share of course.Ha! Ha!
-Jerry

As mentioned previously, patients in clinical trials are randomised to receive study drug or not. This is done by computer and the doctors at 'ground level' do not know what the patient is on until the study is finished or unblinded so there is no chance of a doctor selling/providing PED's to an athlete in this way.
As for 70-80% of drugs going astray, this is also grossly untrue, especially for PED's such as EPO. These are supplied directly to the hospital or clinic by a distributor appointed by the drug company (in the UK at least) and invoiced at the time of supply, and they can only be supplied to registered hospitals or clinics.

As for the revenue generated from professional sports, it really wouldn't be worth any company risking being caught supplying PED's to athletes. The total sales of EPO's across the world runs into the tens of billions of dollars every year, whereas even if every pro athlete was using the drug it would be small fry by comparison. As a result,no company is going to risk losing that revenue.

Having said that, there are only a handful of official manufacturers of EPO around the world whereas there are loads of 'factories' making EPO in China and Russia for example . Any athlete using these is running a massive risk of long term complications because these molecules are very difficult to manufacture and these unofficial suppliers have never had their processes or products tested to ensure that they are safe.