Was I in the wrong?

freehub

Ok, leave the flaming that I don't properly know the highway code untill after.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/ ... ure-10.jpg

See this image, I'm the red line, the traffic lights where on green, so I kept going, in the right hand lane opposite me on the other side of the road, a taxi (green line), turned right, stopped, then I had to quickly brake, then, as that moved off, a nissan micra (blue line), came and was beeping because I was blocking the way from the taxi driver.

So was I in the wrong? despite the lights being green I should have stopped at that area for bikes at the lights and waited untill all traffic in the oncoming right hand lane had turned right?

I do know that you should give way to your right, but I thought in that case, they had to wait on that side untill clear?


Thanks
Will.

schlepcycling

From the pic and your explanation you had every right to just keep going across the green lights and the traffic to your right should wait until it's clear for them to turn.

It's the same as if you'd been any other vehicle as far as I know, the traffic turning across your lane(s) should only do so when it's safe for them to complete the turn without obstructing oncoming traffic (in the case you).

risi

If the lights were green, then you have right of way in the direction in which you were travelling. Traffic turning across your path must wait for it to be clear to do so.
The yellow hatched box indicates that you should not stop inside it (when there's queue for example). This leaves the way clear for those turning right from the other way to do so.
However, for those turning right, as is the case for the taxi, they can enter the yellow box but only if the exit is clear. If the taxi turned right & then stopped it sound like the exit wasn't clear & he shouldn't have been there in the first place. The Nissan just compounded that problem.
So, you were right - the taxi made you stop when it shouldn't have. The nissan driver was just an arse.

Edit: "shouldn't have"

cjw

You were in the right and had right of way (as I read it - little complicated) but simply put, you were on main carriageway proceeding straight ahead. The only thing that would change that would be if a vehicle were stopped in front of you on the far side of the hatched box; in that case you can't enter the box until your way forward was clear.

freehub

Hmmm, because I'm being lead to believe on another forum, that in this picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/ ... ure3-1.jpg

I am the red line coming through on green light, but the cars in the green line can just set off on green and that I the red line would have had to wait.

I was cycling along, and I did not expect the taxi driver to just pull out right, but he did then stopped in yellow box, so I stopped but I was then in the yellow box, but from where I was that taxi driver should not have turned right untill I was past.

cjw

They're idiots then.

risi

freehub wrote:

Hmmm, because I'm being lead to believe on another forum, that in this picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/ ... ure3-1.jpg

I am the red line coming through on green light, but the cars in the green line can just set off on green and that I the red line would have had to wait.

No, absolutely not. Cars turning across the carriageway do not have right of way.
What cjw said...

pyro_maniac

from what i can see in both cases Will, that you have right of way to carry on through the green light, any traffic movements from vehicles turning right would have to wait for it to be clear, not for you to wait until they have turned right

risi

FYI - the relevant bits of the highway code:

Box junctions (your first question):

174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
[Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)]

Traffic turning right:

180
Wait until there is a safe gap between you and any oncoming vehicle. Watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, pedestrians and other road users. Check your mirrors and blind spot again to make sure you are not being overtaken, then make the turn. Do not cut the corner. Take great care when turning into a main road; you will need to watch for traffic in both directions and wait for a safe gap.
Remember: Mirrors – Signal – Manoeuvre

freehub

Hmm thanks, allthough I might just try to avoid oxford road from now on unless it's quiet or if I am in desperate need of edinburgh cycles, when I go to wheelers meet in didsbury I use the A34, despite being dual carridge way it seems safer.

risi

Ugh, Oxford Road.
I went to Manchester Uni (more years ago than I care to mention), and it's the only place I've come close to being knocked off by some c*ck in a BMW (surprise!) when he clipped my handlebars with his wing mirror. Chased him down to the traffic lights but he got away just before I got there. I used to use Upper Brook Street/Anson Road most of the time (I had to look it up, but that's the A34, so I'm with you on that one then).

TommyEss

Agreed - you were correct, they were ignorant.

Everybody cedes the right of way if they are turning across a carriageway - they were intending to turn across you, so they give way to you (assuming your light was on green, which it was)

The whole "give way to the right" is only for roundabouts, and is intended to keep traffic already on the roundabout moving freely through and off, rather than blocking up the whole thing because they can't get off it!

freehub

That's what I thought, when I'm coming to a roundabout I'm always repeating give way to the right in my head, then I set off and some driver from the left does not give way, infact on one roundabout, I proceeded to go across and this woman from the left beeped at me??


I'd like to think I'm a safe cyclist, but whenever I'm told I'm in the wrong like at that junction I'm usually going to believe them even if I'm sure I was in the right, I've not took cycling proficiency and everything I've learnt is through riding with clubs, lukilly where I live it's just open country roads not a traffic light in sight, then I come to Manchester and junctions from google maps look amazingly complicated, lukilly when you get to them they are pretty simple.

Headhuunter

risi wrote:

If the lights were green, then you have right of way in the direction in which you were travelling. Traffic turning across your path must wait for it to be clear to do so.
The yellow hatched box indicates that you should not stop inside it (when there's queue for example). This leaves the way clear for those turning right from the other way to do so.
However, for those turning right, as is the case for the taxi, they can enter the yellow box but only if the exit is clear. If the taxi turned right & then stopped it sound like the exit wasn't clear & he shouldn't have been there in the first place. The Nissan just compounded that problem.
So, you were right - the taxi made you stop when it should have. The nissan driver was just an ars*.

That's my take too. I would have D locked the pair of 'em...

Headhuunter

I got honked unecessarily this morning. I was cycling along Cheapside with nothing much ahead or behind me when a massive cement mixing truck pulled out in front of me from a parked position on the side of the road ahead forcing me to brake. He hadn't indicated and pulled out quite wide leaving quite a large gap between him and the curb. Without any kind of signal I assumed that he would be moving off straight ahead and by this time I was up level with it on the left, ready to filter past him and other traffic in front to get to the lights, however suddenly, again without indication, it did a big arch to pull into a construction site. There was a banksman on the other side of him stopping traffic in the other lane, but no banksman behind and as I said, no inidication. I was forced to put a spurt on to get round before he pulled across my path and into the site. As I whizzed round the fool honked at me! How about not pulling out in front of me and indicating your intentions mate?!

risi

Headhuunter wrote:

risi wrote:

If the lights were green, then you have right of way in the direction in which you were travelling. Traffic turning across your path must wait for it to be clear to do so.
The yellow hatched box indicates that you should not stop inside it (when there's queue for example). This leaves the way clear for those turning right from the other way to do so.
However, for those turning right, as is the case for the taxi, they can enter the yellow box but only if the exit is clear. If the taxi turned right & then stopped it sound like the exit wasn't clear & he shouldn't have been there in the first place. The Nissan just compounded that problem.
So, you were right - the taxi made you stop when it should have. The nissan driver was just an ars*.

That's my take too. I would have D locked the pair of 'em...

"Speak softly and carry a D-lock"

(with apologies to T Roosevelt).

freehub

I'd never cycle on the inside of any vehicle when there is any left turning near, I got knocked off my bike for someone turning left without indicated, my phone was destroyed but lukilly all I got was a bent shifter and fell head first over my handlebars, no helmet on at the time too.

TommyEss

Headhuunter wrote:

I got honked unecessarily this morning. I was cycling along Cheapside with nothing much ahead or behind me when a massive cement mixing truck pulled out in front of me from a parked position on the side of the road ahead forcing me to brake. He hadn't indicated and pulled out quite wide leaving quite a large gap between him and the curb. Without any kind of signal I assumed that he would be moving off straight ahead and by this time I was up level with it on the left, ready to filter past him and other traffic in front to get to the lights, however suddenly, again without indication, it did a big arch to pull into a construction site. There was a banksman on the other side of him stopping traffic in the other lane, but no banksman behind and as I said, no inidication. I was forced to put a spurt on to get round before he pulled across my path and into the site. As I whizzed round the fool honked at me! How about not pulling out in front of me and indicating your intentions mate?!

Sorry mate - but have you taken in nothing from all of these tragic left-turning lorry takes out cyclist incidents recently?

Whether there was a big gap or not - I'd always hang back - the guy's just done one dick-headed manouever right in front of you, your spidey-senses should be tingling at the thought that he'll no doubt pull another half-brained stunt - which he duly did.

Also - when an HGV pulls wide right it's 99.9% certain he's about to take a sharp left and doesn't want to clip the kerb - it's not an invitation to undertake him - you should take it as a very clear signal to hold the fuck back and stop if necessary.

You were very very lucky there - getting squished cosy in the knowledge that the driver should have indicated is no comfort to your loved ones.

Assume drivers will do silly things like pull out withouth indicating, swerve in without indicating, and generally completely mis-judge your speed and try pulling out on you at all kinds of junctions, especially roundabouts - I try and make eye contact as early as possible, which gives them the heads-up that I'm on my way, but also gives me time to cover the brakes.

You know the danger zones people - we read about these near-misses and collisions day-in, day-out.

Learn from others.

Ride appropriately.

Fore-warned is fore-armed

CHRISNOIR

Preaching to the converted here but take care cycling down Oxford Road guys - even driving down it puts me on edge!

freehub

The most risky part of oxford road I think is near the BBC, all those busses.

CHRISNOIR

freehub wrote:

The most risky part of oxford road I think is near the BBC, all those busses.

Anyone know if it's true Oxford Road is the busiest bus route in Europe? Or is it urban myth?

freehub

Well you can get a hell of allot of busses on and they cause hell sometimes. I'd guess probs, I mean it's got MMU and Univiersity of Manchester on the same route aswell as possible The Manchester College, europes biggest college, so all that on the same road makes it quite possible.

Headhuunter

TommyEss wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I got honked unecessarily this morning. I was cycling along Cheapside with nothing much ahead or behind me when a massive cement mixing truck pulled out in front of me from a parked position on the side of the road ahead forcing me to brake. He hadn't indicated and pulled out quite wide leaving quite a large gap between him and the curb. Without any kind of signal I assumed that he would be moving off straight ahead and by this time I was up level with it on the left, ready to filter past him and other traffic in front to get to the lights, however suddenly, again without indication, it did a big arch to pull into a construction site. There was a banksman on the other side of him stopping traffic in the other lane, but no banksman behind and as I said, no inidication. I was forced to put a spurt on to get round before he pulled across my path and into the site. As I whizzed round the fool honked at me! How about not pulling out in front of me and indicating your intentions mate?!

Sorry mate - but have you taken in nothing from all of these tragic left-turning lorry takes out cyclist incidents recently?

Whether there was a big gap or not - I'd always hang back - the guy's just done one dick-headed manouever right in front of you, your spidey-senses should be tingling at the thought that he'll no doubt pull another half-brained stunt - which he duly did.

Also - when an HGV pulls wide right it's 99.9% certain he's about to take a sharp left and doesn't want to clip the kerb - it's not an invitation to undertake him - you should take it as a very clear signal to hold the fark back and stop if necessary.

You were very very lucky there - getting squished cosy in the knowledge that the driver should have indicated is no comfort to your loved ones.

Assume drivers will do silly things like pull out withouth indicating, swerve in without indicating, and generally completely mis-judge your speed and try pulling out on you at all kinds of junctions, especially roundabouts - I try and make eye contact as early as possible, which gives them the heads-up that I'm on my way, but also gives me time to cover the brakes.

You know the danger zones people - we read about these near-misses and collisions day-in, day-out.

Learn from others.

Ride appropriately.

Fore-warned is fore-armed

Yes, I have seen all the articles about left turning lorries, it's just that there wasn't an obvous left turn, at least I couldn't see it coz the truck was blocking my view. It just swung out in front of me, paused for a bit then started to swing back in without any indication. If I'd had X ray vision I woulda been able to see the banksman who had stopped the traffic on the other side but on my side there was nothing. Perhaps you're right, I should have stopped completely, but from my perspective it looked like the truck had pulled out round something parked up on the left and was then going to head straight on but paused behind traffic in which case I would have been perfectly fine to continue on past filtering, however it suddenly started to swing left into the previously invisible turn into the construction site. It was all very unclear and without warning. The guy had someone to help him make the manoeuvre up in front, but no one behind...

TommyEss

I know mate - sorry - I wasn't trying to be harsh!

I think you have to take this as a close shave/luck escape, and learn from it.

A couple of years ago I had my "Ooh - that was a bit silly on my part" whilst filtering between two lanes of stationary traffic, coming up to traffic lights that were on green - didn't see the pedestrian crossing on the red man until his head came out from in front of the lorry...

Cue awesome swere on my part, barely glanced the guy's chest with my shoulder - then came the realisation that the swerve had sent me on a collision course with the rear end of a car that had already crossed the junction and stopped - tried to swerve back left, but the front wheel washed out, and I hit the deck.

So - the pedestrian shouldn't have been there - but think to when you're on two feet - traffic's stopped, you've got the red man, but nothing's moving in this, you step out - we've all done it.

Well now I've experienced it, I always filter slowly, and go at a crawl past tall vehicles - the ones that stop me seeing the pedestrians in good time - buses, lorries, big vans - if it's just cars, your head's high enough to see anyone looking to cross, and you can act accordingly.

The amount of zombie stares you get as you track stand and give a gentle "Ahem" is unreal - and I'll never race through stationary traffic again.

redvee

Looking at the junction in the latter screengrab its hard to tell wether there is a filter light for those turning right. If they've gone through a red on the filter lane then it's a no-brainer.

freehub

If that's a green arrow for them then my lane would have been on red.

_Brun_

Headhuunter wrote:

I got honked unecessarily this morning. I was cycling along Cheapside with nothing much ahead or behind me when a massive cement mixing truck pulled out in front of me from a parked position on the side of the road ahead forcing me to brake. He hadn't indicated and pulled out quite wide leaving quite a large gap between him and the curb. Without any kind of signal I assumed that he would be moving off straight ahead and by this time I was up level with it on the left, ready to filter past him and other traffic in front to get to the lights, however suddenly, again without indication, it did a big arch to pull into a construction site. There was a banksman on the other side of him stopping traffic in the other lane, but no banksman behind and as I said, no inidication. I was forced to put a spurt on to get round before he pulled across my path and into the site. As I whizzed round the fool honked at me! How about not pulling out in front of me and indicating your intentions mate?!

What you've described above really is chancing it in the extreme. Considering you're currently having to stick up for yourself as a 'careful' cyclist, I'm very surprised you've even posted it.

skyd0g

The one thing you have to remember is:
...sometimes being in the right doesn't stop you from taking an unscheduled flight over some half-wits bonnet.

cjw

skyd0g wrote:

The one thing you have to remember is:
...sometimes being in the right doesn't stop you from taking an unscheduled flight over some half-wits bonnet.

Absolutely...

Being in the right is irrelevant. Protecting both yourself and others is the point.

shockedsoshocked

CHRISNOIR wrote:

freehub wrote:

The most risky part of oxford road I think is near the BBC, all those busses.

Anyone know if it's true Oxford Road is the busiest bus route in Europe? Or is it urban myth?

I heard that too, and it wouldn't surprise me. The novelty factor of getting on a "magic" bus is still pretty high for me.

@ Freehub. You were in the right by the way, but unfortunately people turning across your path is all too frequent. I could suggest a few choice words and gestures, but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

freehub

I really can't get much out of my mouth when I'm on the bike, all I say is f***** dik ed, lol, and then about 10 seconds later I think, what a stupid thing to say