Taxing The Cyclist

Tonymufc

Ok picture this. Fuel prices continue to soar, road tax the goes the same way. So the majority motoring public turn to two wheels. All car journeys are halved. So the government has lost a lot of revenue. So how do you think they would try to recoup some of the money lost in fuel and road duty. My thoughts would be a complete u-turn and tax the enviromentally friendly, fit and healthy cyclists. What type of tax could they come up with though.

downfader

Tonymufc wrote:

Ok picture this. Fuel prices continue to soar, road tax the goes the same way. So the majority motoring public turn to two wheels. All car journeys are halved. So the government has lost a lot of revenue. So how do you think they would try to recoup some of the money lost in fuel and road duty. My thoughts would be a complete u-turn and tax the enviromentally friendly, fit and healthy cyclists. What type of tax could they come up with though.

Would be pointless doing it after point of sale, too hard to keep track. I seriously doubt it would happen as most of the damage that needs paying for either in the air or on the road surface comes from the motor. Less motors then less damage.

edhornby

they'd tax frames, so whether you bought a full bike or components you would give the govt a big wodge

and we pay VAT on all components anyway, this would offset some of the lost car revenue

The road transport infrastructure would need less investment because the weight of the traffic massively reduces, hence less resurfacing, no new motorways needed

but ultimately there is a lot less opportunity to tax bikes so they would have to take it on the chin, the revenue from cars that gets spent on schools, hospitals, justice, welfare etc would have to be reprioritised - conspracy thorists would say thats why they don't invest too hard on public transport to maintain the status quo.....

nick hanson

edhornby wrote:

they'd tax frames, so whether you bought a full bike or components you would give the govt a big wodge

and we pay VAT on all components anyway, this would offset some of the lost car revenue

The road transport infrastructure would need less investment because the weight of the traffic massively reduces, hence less resurfacing, no new motorways needed

but ultimately there is a lot less opportunity to tax bikes so they would have to take it on the chin, the revenue from cars that gets spent on schools, hospitals, justice, welfare etc would have to be reprioritised - conspracy thorists would say thats why they don't invest too hard on public transport to maintain the status quo.....

The revenue from motorists pays for FAR more than is spent on roads.
If the revinue dropped through not collecting the fuel duties that ANY government had banked on,then the country would be bankrupt,& make no mistake.
Just the same as if everyone stopped drinking & smoking.If the population wanted the country to carry on functioning,having bins emptied,Police out there,hospitals for when you have health issues,Etc etc,then we would all have to pay a far higher base rate of tax.

downfader

nick hanson wrote:

edhornby wrote:

they'd tax frames, so whether you bought a full bike or components you would give the govt a big wodge

and we pay VAT on all components anyway, this would offset some of the lost car revenue

The road transport infrastructure would need less investment because the weight of the traffic massively reduces, hence less resurfacing, no new motorways needed

but ultimately there is a lot less opportunity to tax bikes so they would have to take it on the chin, the revenue from cars that gets spent on schools, hospitals, justice, welfare etc would have to be reprioritised - conspracy thorists would say thats why they don't invest too hard on public transport to maintain the status quo.....

The revenue from motorists pays for FAR more than is spent on roads.
If the revinue dropped through not collecting the fuel duties that ANY government had banked on,then the country would be bankrupt,& make no mistake.
Just the same as if everyone stopped drinking & smoking.If the population wanted the country to carry on functioning,having bins emptied,Police out there,hospitals for when you have health issues,Etc etc,then we would all have to pay a far higher base rate of tax.

Or public service officials, councillers and top MPs would have to take a pay cut, and ditch the quangos, as they do in places like Norway £300m a year saved from the NHS alone for one.

Anonymous

No way all the lazy gets in cars would contemplate walking let alone cycling.

downfader

dmclite wrote:

No way all the lazy gets in cars would contemplate walking let alone cycling.

Thats what I used to think but over the past year I've had several people come up and ask me about the kit and where to park at work. People are slowly realising the financial and health benefits.

Buckled_Rims

Bikes are already taxed with VAT. Take your bike into the LBS for a service it's taxed on parts and labour.

Politicians are essentially cowards, that will never change. They do not accept it's YOUR money that they are spending. So, the annual cry of spend more on NHS, more on schools, more on blah.....But it's not their money, it's ours! So, if there's less road tax, they'll increase tabs, booze and petrol, and then they'll find a few hidden taxes that'll bite you.

We in the UK are some of the most taxed people in the world. You earn a wage, that's taxed. The firm you work for is essentially taxed for employing you. Virtually every penny you spend is taxed. You save you're taxed. You save for your family and die, you're taxed. If you have a retirement pension...er no tax, but service charges and I think they'll be taxed.

Actually here's a challenge - what isn't taxed in our lives, you'd be surprised what is

rolf_f

Buckled_Rims wrote:

We in the UK are some of the most taxed people in the world.

Not really though we like to think so! Will change if we go for the 50% rate.

Denmark 59
Sweden 55
Netherlands 52
Austria 50
JAPAN 50
Norway 47.8
Australia 45
China 45
GERMANY 45
ITALY 43
Spain 43
Ireland 41
Slovenia 41
FRANCE 40
Switzerland 40

Of course, there is far more to it than just these numbers but, basically, the country costs so much to run. If you want to pay less tax, what do you want to lose? Personally, I'd prefer to pay more tax if the income was used wisely.

Anonymous

downfader wrote:

dmclite wrote:

No way all the lazy gets in cars would contemplate walking let alone cycling.

Thats what I used to think but over the past year I've had several people come up and ask me about the kit and where to park at work. People are slowly realising the financial and health benefits.

Yeah, some of the guys I work with have started. Fair point, well put.

teagar

Cycling won't get taxed because it's greener than driving.

I always thought it was pretty well established the UK taxes a smaller proportion of GDP than any other major Western European country.

geoff_ss

A friend of mine spent several years working in Xian, China before he retired. One of his bikes still has the Chinese registration number issued then on his rear mudguard. So pedal bikes can be both taxed and registered if the will is there.

Won't happen in my lifetime though. Before you get complacent I should mention that I'll be 70 in January so that's not saying much

Geoff

Eau Rouge

Vehicle Excise Duty and Fuel Duty income is cut so therefore the government has to find something else road-based to replace it?
Isn't that exactly the same incorrect thinking that leads motorists to think they have some privilege to the road because they pay "road tax"?

If the government needs to replace lost income from less motorists on the roads they could take it from absolutely anywhere. Taxes are not "ring fenced" into the departments that generate them, they all go to the Treasury, form one huge pot, and get redistributed back to the other departments based on policy, not how much those departments take in.

I don't know which bugs me more, that people don't understand that, or that they think they are heavily taxed.

OffTheBackAdam

James May in his column yesterday, suggested that the push towards making motorists responsible for any accident involving cyclists, (& cyclists if involved in accidents with pedestrians?) may lead to us having to have insurance.
Insurance premiums attract tax, so there's one way.
Bikes would have to be registered + have licence plates, so there's another, compulsary bike MOTs would be another.
Tax Freedom day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day
Certainly we're better than many European countries, no wonder they're keen on harmonising taxes & hoiking us up to their levels!
Mind you, add in Brown's Borrowing Binge, & we've got to work until June 25th to pay off!
http://www.adamsmith.org/tax-freedom-day/
""It's nice to see Tax Freedom Day come early, but our research doesn't leave me optimistic. Under Gordon Brown's stewardship of the economy, the government's annual deficit went from near-balance in 1998 to more than 3% in 2007. And that was when the UK economy was growing strongly. Now the Chancellor is forecasting a 13.3% deficit. Young people have the right to feel very angry, because they'll be carrying the burden of these mistakes for years to come.""

Headhuunter

Rolf F wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

We in the UK are some of the most taxed people in the world.

Not really though we like to think so! Will change if we go for the 50% rate.

Denmark 59
Sweden 55
Netherlands 52
Austria 50
JAPAN 50
Norway 47.8
Australia 45
China 45
GERMANY 45
ITALY 43
Spain 43
Ireland 41
Slovenia 41
FRANCE 40
Switzerland 40

Of course, there is far more to it than just these numbers but, basically, the country costs so much to run. If you want to pay less tax, what do you want to lose? Personally, I'd prefer to pay more tax if the income was used wisely.

Where'd you get those numbers from? I used to live in Japan and there is no way I paid 50% tax. t was more like 10%! And VAT was 3% when I arrived (back in the 90s and they put it up to 5% or something whilst I was there. I think most countried in Asia tax way less than European countries do.

Headhuunter

dmclite wrote:

No way all the lazy gets in cars would contemplate walking let alone cycling.

I agree, yes, there will be a core of young and relatively young people who realise that getting to work on a bike if cheaper, more healthy and often quicker but many people will not do away with their cars completely. Parents with kids, people who travel long distances, people who need to regularly transport bulky items and businesses, the haulage and logistics industry will always run things about in trucks, unless there is some enormous push to get freight off the roads and onto trains or huge investment in passenger trains.

In the near future it's unlikely that any government will start to tax cyclists. Overall cycling saves the government money and it's popularity is on the rise. Bikes do not damage road surfaces so the fewer cars there are, the less the need for expensive road repairs, bikes do not need such an extensive road network including motorways etc, in cities, the more people there are on bikes, the less expenditure is necessary on public transport like buses and the Tube in London and finally, if people cycle, they are less likely to be obese and end up in hospital at NHS expense.

If motor travel did decrease enormously, I should think the government would tax in simpler ways - raise income tax, VAT, stamp duty etc. Making sure that every cyclist is taxed and insured takes police time and also necessitates the establishment of some kind of organisational body like the DVLA to register all bikes.

ConsciousPilot

Headhuunter wrote:

Making sure that every cyclist is taxed and insured takes police time and also necessitates the establishment of some kind of organisational body like the DVLA to register all bikes.

Sounds like a winner to me! :twisted: The BVLA could then sell our bike details to third parties to raise even more revenue

OffTheBackAdam

teagar wrote:

Cycling won't get taxed because it's greener than driving.

It's got nowt to do with "Greenness", other than as a convenient excuse for raising more money!

Headhuunter

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

teagar wrote:

Cycling won't get taxed because it's greener than driving.

It's got nowt to do with "Greenness", other than as a convenient excuse for raising more money!

But there's no point raising money through cycling if you force people off bikes and back into their cars. You can guarantee that for most people if they have to pay tax on their car AND their bike, the bike will get the axe. As above, this will create more congestion on the roads, necessitating expensive road building and also maintanence of existing roads. Those who don't move to car will get back on public transport which again costs money to maintain and develop.

Le Commentateur

Buckled_Rims wrote:

They do not accept it's YOUR money that they are spending. So, the annual cry of spend more on NHS, more on schools, more on blah.....

That's the notion of the people who see money as a means of containing wealth rather than a one of enabling relationships, community and culture through economic activity – an economic siege mentality in other words.

Le Commentateur

Headhuunter wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

We in the UK are some of the most taxed people in the world.

Not really though we like to think so! Will change if we go for the 50% rate.

Denmark 59
Sweden 55
Netherlands 52
Austria 50
JAPAN 50
Norway 47.8
Australia 45
China 45
GERMANY 45
ITALY 43
Spain 43
Ireland 41
Slovenia 41
FRANCE 40
Switzerland 40

Of course, there is far more to it than just these numbers but, basically, the country costs so much to run. If you want to pay less tax, what do you want to lose? Personally, I'd prefer to pay more tax if the income was used wisely.

Where'd you get those numbers from? I used to live in Japan and there is no way I paid 50% tax. t was more like 10%! And VAT was 3% when I arrived (back in the 90s and they put it up to 5% or something whilst I was there. I think most countried in Asia tax way less than European countries do.

You can't just look at the raw %s though -- the social structures of some of these countries are reliant on support and obligations across the generations or extended members of family groups, more than most people in the UK anyway.

teagar

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

teagar wrote:

Cycling won't get taxed because it's greener than driving.

It's got nowt to do with "Greenness", other than as a convenient excuse for raising more money!

Governments arn't money making machines. They tax what they feel people should be using less. They give tax breaks for things they want people to use more.

It's not a scam to rob offthebackadam of his money.


If only!

Spiny_Norman

Headhuunter wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Buckled_Rims wrote:

We in the UK are some of the most taxed people in the world.

Not really though we like to think so! Will change if we go for the 50% rate.

Denmark 59
Sweden 55
Netherlands 52
Austria 50
JAPAN 50
Norway 47.8
Australia 45
China 45
GERMANY 45
ITALY 43
Spain 43
Ireland 41
Slovenia 41
FRANCE 40
Switzerland 40

Of course, there is far more to it than just these numbers but, basically, the country costs so much to run. If you want to pay less tax, what do you want to lose? Personally, I'd prefer to pay more tax if the income was used wisely.

Where'd you get those numbers from? I used to live in Japan and there is no way I paid 50% tax. t was more like 10%! And VAT was 3% when I arrived (back in the 90s and they put it up to 5% or something whilst I was there. I think most countried in Asia tax way less than European countries do.

Those figures don't look right to me either. It looks like they're based on the top rates of income tax in each country, which is meaningless, as that only affects the highest earners, and ignores the other forms of taxation in each country. There are stats available on total tax take as a percentage of GDP, and also Govt spending as a percentage of GDP, as a data quality check. Tax as % of GDP gives us:

Sweden 54.2
Denmark 48.8
Finland 46.9
Belgium 45.6
France 45.3
Austria 43.7
Italy 42
Netherlands 41.4
Norway 40.3
Germany 37.9
UK 37.4
Canada 35.8
Switzerland 35.7
New Zealand 35.1
Australia 31.5
Ireland 31.1
US 29.6
Japan 27.1

Govt spending as % of GDP for the same countries:

France 61.1
Sweden 58.1
Denmark 58.1
Belgium 56
Norway 55.8
Italy 55.3
Netherlands 54.7
Austria 54.3
Finland 54.2
UK 50
Germany 48.8
Canada 48.2
New Zealand 46.6
Australia 43.6
Ireland 41.5
Switzerland 37.8
Japan 30.9
US 19.9

I've got a few misgivings about the quality of the data (it's hard to pin down accurate figures for this, but while I can believe that most countries are running substantial budget deficits, I can't believe that the US is only spending $2 for every $3 taken in tax). Generally, though, it indicates that tax in the UK is about average for a major developed nation. Some tax more, some tax less. Broadly, where taxes are higher, the country is known to have a strong welfare state. Where they're lower, funding isn't available for some things we take for granted.

daviesee

From the figures above:-

34% in
50% out

That may go some way to explaining the black hole.

And the hard times to come :evil: