Who Is The Best Directeur Sportif Of All Time?

all show no go

Following on from the Fantasy Tour Team thread, I thought i'd ask you lot who you think would qualify as the best DS ever. There's obviously many to choose from stretching over the past and present but who is really the best? Guimard? Riis? Raas? Bruyneel etc?
My choice would be Peter Post of TI Raleigh fame/infamy. Not exactly well like by British riders, notably Dave Lloyd, but a man who's teams dominated professional cycling for around fifteen years.
I'd be interested to see what all you folks think....

ynyswen24

Jean de Gribaldi..

iainf72

Guimard

Kléber

Another one for Guimard.

He brought in a new level of tactical craft, he introduced riders to new training methods, he brought in new kit as well. Others have done this but not all three and to the same extent, but that's just my view of it.

Peter Post was very strict and succeeded in imposing his will on a strong team, a bit like Patrick Lefevere does/did with Quick-Step / Mapei.

Someone like José DeCauwer's another pick for the way he could coax wins of riders whilst running a team on a shoestring budget.

Bruyneel has done well but he's largely been influenced by Armstrong, it was the Texan who imposed his will and strategies on the team.

You could argue about Manolo Saiz. Bear with me a minute! He was one of the first to build a team with several leaders at the same time*, indeed having domestiques able to win stage races*, he changed the way riders would train, using training sessions instead of racing* and he was one of the first to coach the whole team with sports science*, equipping them all with heart rate monitors rather than leaving each rider to themselves or a coach outside of the team*. He was never a racer himself so he came with a fresh approach. A lot of teams went on to copy his model. Although you could argue Paul Koechli was there first.

Of course, he was busted for running an organised doping scheme and each of the points made with an asterisk above were probably because of the doping.

dave_1

they are mainly car drivers, not race winners and I hope the race radios are removed putting them firmly back in their place...driving the team gear, handing up bottles, wheel changes. Witness the way AC rode the TDF-he did not need Johan bruyneel...he knew what to do as do they all at that level. The thread title suggests the DS is more than a car driver and they mostly aren't.

Dgh

Paul Koechli. Won 2 Tours with 2 different riders, would've been more but for a certain hunting accident, and insisted on cleanliness.

dave_1

Dgh wrote:

Paul Koechli. Won 2 Tours with 2 different riders, would've been more but for a certain hunting accident, and insisted on cleanliness.

..how do we know he insisted on clean-he never even spoke on doping from what I remember as it was totally unreported in those years other than the drugs bust in a six day in 85, 1988 TDF and in any case how dirty was it beyond pea shooter type drugs?

As R Millar said when offered the team manager position (DS basically) at BC , "glorified car driver"......and to repeat, witness Contador's lack of need for the belgian guy who has become some kind of celebrity and hate figure nowadays?

I did in 1991 receive photocopied faxes of brutal looking winter training schedules from Cyrille Guimard which were being dished out at clubs in around Lyon but that was cause Mottet's coach as an amateur was my club's manager in Roman-VC Romans-Mottet's main club before Renault and well connected, so if you mean DS's doing coaching then Koechil was up there... Lemond credits him so but also he lied to Lemond at a crucial moment in the 85 TDF

Kléber

Ok Dave, who's the fastest driver then?

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

Ok Dave, who's the fastest driver then?

The thread perpetuates the cult of the DS which I don't really understand...they hand up bottles, carry wheels and change bikes for top riders who know the sport inside out. How the DS gets big credit for wins, I don't know

Are DS's even needed if we have race radios?

Kléber

They rarely get the credit for the wins. But there are good ones and bad ones.

Sometimes team tactics can play a bit part, whether it's knowing when a crosswind will appear or in sending riders up the road or in predicting the moves of other teams and riders. Guimard was an expert in getting the best out of riders in terms of motivations as well.

dave_1

but to give credit to Guimard, Fignon's wikipedia entry says Guimard made a great rider in Fignon, whereas Hinault already was great before Guimard found him

FJS

Lomme Driessens, old fashioned style bully, but arguably the most succesful.

From the more recent era, Guimard and Peter Post weren't bad either, but I would put them behind Driessens.

dave_1

ok, Jan Raas, for forming teams that could work as lead out trains for Jean Paul van Poppel. Cipo and Pettachi's DS's modelled Raas' method 10-15 years on.

nick hanson

ynyswen24 wrote:

Jean de Gribaldi..

+ 1

Dgh

Dave_1 wrote:

Dgh wrote:

Paul Koechli. Won 2 Tours with 2 different riders, would've been more but for a certain hunting accident, and insisted on cleanliness.

..how do we know he insisted on clean-he never even spoke on doping from what I remember as it was totally unreported in those years other than the drugs bust in a six day in 85, 1988 TDF and in any case how dirty was it beyond pea shooter type drugs?

As R Millar said when offered the team manager position (DS basically) at BC , "glorified car driver"......and to repeat, witness Contador's lack of need for the belgian guy who has become some kind of celebrity and hate figure nowadays?

I did in 1991 receive photocopied faxes of brutal looking winter training schedules from Cyrille Guimard which were being dished out at clubs in around Lyon but that was cause Mottet's coach as an amateur was my club's manager in Roman-VC Romans-Mottet's
main club before Renault and well connected, so if you mean DS's doing coaching then Koechil was up there... Lemond credits him so but also he lied to Lemond at a crucial moment in the 85 TDF

RM was always a miserable sod

LeMond credits Koechli - isn't that good evidence on him being clean.

But maybe we're all overlooking some. What about Binda? Managed to get Coppi and Bartali to ride together in the 1949 Tour. And Ballerini, for the Italina worlds team. And what's his name, the guy who was Spain's DS at the Worlds when they were winning eveything?

edhornby

me

I've been shouting at the telly for years and you've no idea how many of my racers have won - cavendish is doing particularly well at the moment




I'll get my coat

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

but to give credit to Guimard, Fignon's wikipedia entry says Guimard made a great rider in Fignon, whereas Hinault already was great before Guimard found him

The reason I like Guimard is he forced riders to believe in themselves and was a master at reading a race.

Didn't Guimard sign Lemond after he saw him get angry and toss his bike around in an amateur race?

I also have to agree with Kleber, Saiz was many things but he was also a masterful DS.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

but to give credit to Guimard, Fignon's wikipedia entry says Guimard made a great rider in Fignon, whereas Hinault already was great before Guimard found him

The reason I like Guimard is he forced riders to believe in themselves and was a master at reading a race.

Didn't Guimard sign Lemond after he saw him get angry and toss his bike around in an amateur race?

I also have to agree with Kleber, Saiz was many things but he was also a masterful DS.

Iain, would have to research, but did Guimard also develop Van Impe rather than just sign him once he knew he was good? I don't know? But he found Fignon, Lemond, not sure Hinault as Fignon's quotes suggest Hinault was very very obviously talented and did not need nurtured.

Saiz...he signed Contador before he won much, Sastre credits him much. Jalabert was good well before ONCE. Zulle only turned good at ONCE. Not sure

andyp

The greatest would have to be someone who won guided riders to victories in Grand Tours, shorter stage races and the Classics.

To say they are glorified car drivers is so simplistic as to be risible. Ensuring a team is cohesive and united in achieving it's goals is no simple task, and keeping egos in check, and massaging them when riders morale is low takes skill. They are part coach, part psychologist, part tactician and part bastard.

I'd go for Guimard as he could handle different types of riders and direct them to wins in many different types of races.

all show no go

andyp wrote:

They are part coach, part psychologist, part tactician and part bastard.

Brilliantly put.

That also sounds not unlike my mother!

teagar

Maybe not the best ever but Riis is pretty good.

Look at what he's done with CSC/Saxo bank. One of the only true heavy weight teams who feature all year round, in the classics, giro, tour or vuelta.

Have rarely seen them make any tacitcal errors.

dave_1

andyp wrote:

To say they are glorified car drivers is so simplistic as to be risible..

Did Contador need nor even care about the DS he had in the 09 TDF? he could have won without a DS..so long as bottles and mechanical stuff were provided on the road. Also, the glorified car driver comment comes from someone considerably more qualified than you or I on the subject

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

Did Contador need nor even care about the DS he had in the 09 TDF? he could have won without a DS..so long as bottles and mechanical stuff were provided on the road. Also, the glorified car driver comment comes from someone considerably more qualified than you or I on the subject

I'm not so sure. Everyone talks of Bruyneel but the impression I got was Gallopin didn't leave Contador completely isolated.

I like Robert Millar but he's a bit of an anti-social chap (much like myself) who will say things like "glorified car drivers" just to annoy them. If Guimard was driving the car, do you think he would've had the Vuelta nicked off him?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Did Contador need nor even care about the DS he had in the 09 TDF? he could have won without a DS..so long as bottles and mechanical stuff were provided on the road. Also, the glorified car driver comment comes from someone considerably more qualified than you or I on the subject

I'm not so sure. Everyone talks of Bruyneel but the impression I got was Gallopin didn't leave Contador completely isolated.

I like Robert Millar but he's a bit of an anti-social chap (much like myself) who will say things like "glorified car drivers" just to annoy them. If Guimard was driving the car, do you think he would've had the Vuelta nicked off him?

going way back yes, you may have a point there...they do deals in cars on the road, envelopes full of cash changing hands..hardly what the sport should be about though.

I've never been in big enough teams or races to really know what happens so am limited by that in what my comments are worth. I suppose they do more, but am sure the team leader on the road knows the tactics inside out so I struggle to see what a DS can offer in that respect.

top_bhoy

Its maybe more of what they offer away from the race itself...ie the organising of hotels, parts, the assembling of a team, race scheduling, the sponsorship, etc....more of an organising manager than a coaching manager role.

mididoctors

Dave_1 wrote:

ok, Jan Raas, for forming teams that could work as lead out trains for Jean Paul van Poppel. Cipo and Pettachi's DS's modelled Raas' method 10-15 years on.

there's a good DS van poppel

afx237vi

mididoctors wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

ok, Jan Raas, for forming teams that could work as lead out trains for Jean Paul van Poppel. Cipo and Pettachi's DS's modelled Raas' method 10-15 years on.

there's a good DS van poppel

I'm guessing Serge Pauwels would strongly disagree!

ms_tree

Dave_1 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

going way back yes, you may have a point there...they do deals in cars on the road, envelopes full of cash changing hands..hardly what the sport should be about though.

It's not sport it's business. 8)

afx237vi

Cycling wouldn't be cycling without all the dodgy dealings going on in the team cars.

shawman

Jean de Gribaldi