Shop Vs Internet?

zedders

I have said before that I don't really get on with my LBS, and for no paricular reason other than they conned me when I brought my first bike (in 2007) and they messed me about when I got some new wheels a while ago (2008). Like most places obviously my face don't fit.

Anyways I was desprate today for some supplies and thought I'll give the place another go, so popped in on the way home. I picked up a 1.6kg tub of PSP22 energy which cost me £20 :shock: And a tub of Assos chamois cream (140ml) for £11. :shock:
Total bill £31. (I know I didn't have to pay that price, but like I said I was desprate).

Upon looking around it was clear since the last time they have put their prices up, (again). Now I undrerstand when most good folk say that their LBS is great, and they ofter good advice, service, and "are worth their weight in gold" etc. But surely when it comes to bits and bobs (not a new ride) it's very dificult to justify spending ££'s more at your LBS? Everything seemed to be a good is a good 10 to 20% + more than what it would cost off the net - delivered?

I know a £5 is nothing, but when I consider other stuff I've brought from the shop? When you add it all up it equals quite a tidy sum? What do you do? Do you always support your LBS? Or What?

And while I'm on the subject of LBS, I work in Rugby (Warks). I know of several LBS there but don't seem to have come across one with a good "road" section? Any suggestions? I thought Rugby was more than big enough for a half decent LBS?

ride_whenever

i used to until they fired me...

zedders

ride_whenever wrote:

i used to until they fired me...

Fired for what? Anything good?

ride_whenever

not really, office politics..

but I should be an assistant manager soon... 8)

bristolpete

Interesting point. I have a great LBS that has been nothing but superb since I stepped in there. I found the place by accident when I was buying my mountain bike as I googled Lapierre dealers and came across them. Went along, looked at the bike and bought it so maybe I started off on the right foot by not asking 'what's your best price'. (not suggesting that you do that).

Secondly, I have since gone back and bought a road bike from them also as I felt the advice, service and ethic is sound and I did not really want to buy another off the shelf bike. Again, cant fault them. good advice, good products, what I call decent prices.

Naturally I am aware that other shops may offer similar service, but I can only speak for this one. There are more than enough bike shops in Bristol, but one particular shop that I walked into failed to acknowledge me for more than ten minutes and a shame for them as I had £2K in my pocket which was spent elsewhere.

I think bike shops are endemic of most specialist retailers in that there are good and bad everywhere. Maybe the prices are simply clouding your judgement of what is a good shop. Personally, I would always pay shop prices over the internet because I like to see my ride before I buy it, not when it arrives flat pack (and I am far from loaded).

Pete.

guilliano

I work in a LBS so am biased obviously. I do think that both have their place. I have bought stuff from the net myself as my boss simply couldn't match prices, but (especially for beginners) a good LBS with staff that just want you to enjoy bikes as much as them is truly invaluable. I wouldn't have gotten so into bikes as I am without the shop I now work in.

zedders

bristolpete wrote:

I think bike shops are endemic of most specialist retailers in that there are good and bad everywhere. Maybe the prices are simply clouding your judgement of what is a good shop. Personally, I would always pay shop prices over the internet because I like to see my ride before I buy it, not when it arrives flat pack (and I am far from loaded).
Pete.

I did say, not including a new ride!
Anyways the price is one thing but I just feel that it's not a great shop. Others I know have complained about the service also, and like I said I've been conned before!!

I just felt like a bit of a moan! It is Monday after all.

bristolpete

zedders wrote:

bristolpete wrote:

I think bike shops are endemic of most specialist retailers in that there are good and bad everywhere. Maybe the prices are simply clouding your judgement of what is a good shop. Personally, I would always pay shop prices over the internet because I like to see my ride before I buy it, not when it arrives flat pack (and I am far from loaded).
Pete.

I did say, not including a new ride!
Anyways the price is one thing but I just feel that it's not a great shop. Others I know have complained about the service also, and like I said I've been conned before!!

I just felt like a bit of a moan! It is Monday after all.

Moan away dude, no problem to me. You are doing the right thing then. Vote with your feet and mouse and lets hope you find somewhere 'decent' soon.

mfin

My local bike shop over-prices and I don't feel I should have to ask for 'best price they can do' (but that's what happens) ...eg... Pro Race 3 Tyre £39, when online there's a good few places to get a pair for £50 delivered. This is just one example, all their stuff is labelled up at pretty much RRP. Myself, Im cheeky enough to ask for a better price but that doesn't mean I mind paying a bit more to support them, cos I don't - but not stupid amounts.

I'm sure they do themselves no favours being that overpriced when there's so many of us know the internet prices for so many items off by heart. I also don't feel comfortable with the fact that 'for every net savvy person like me' there's another person who doesn't use the net, who might take it for granted that they are getting good service but in truth are effectively getting a bit ripped off. So, I warn people like this that I know of their prices being high on some items. If they take the p1ss out of people who trust them so much that they don't shop around what does it say about them?

bristolpete

mfin wrote:

My local bike shop over-prices and I don't feel I should have to ask for 'best price they can do' (but that's what happens) ...eg... Pro Race 3 Tyre £39, when online there's a good few places to get a pair for £50 delivered. This is just one example, all their stuff is labelled up at pretty much RRP. Myself, Im cheeky enough to ask for a better price but that doesn't mean I mind paying a bit more to support them, cos I don't - but not stupid amounts.

I'm sure they do themselves no favours being that overpriced when there's so many of us know the internet prices for so many items off by heart. I also don't feel comfortable with the fact that 'for every net savvy person like me' there's another person who doesn't use the net, who might take it for granted that they are getting good service but in truth are effectively getting a bit ripped off. So, I warn people like this that I know of their prices being high on some items. If they take the p1ss out of people who trust them so much that they don't shop around what does it say about them?

Fair comment, but misinformation is rife due to the internet. I always think yeah, it may be more but this guy is making a living and albeit in a less devious way than the online retailer who is creaming as much, just in a different way. Its an old debate now and I think most agree to disagree on the internet vs. the shop debate, but having managed a large UK camera shop for years I can honestly tell you that it gets very seriously depressing when everyone assumes you are rip off merchants.

mfin

bristolpete wrote:

mfin wrote:

My local bike shop over-prices and I don't feel I should have to ask for 'best price they can do' (but that's what happens) ...eg... Pro Race 3 Tyre £39, when online there's a good few places to get a pair for £50 delivered. This is just one example, all their stuff is labelled up at pretty much RRP. Myself, Im cheeky enough to ask for a better price but that doesn't mean I mind paying a bit more to support them, cos I don't - but not stupid amounts.

I'm sure they do themselves no favours being that overpriced when there's so many of us know the internet prices for so many items off by heart. I also don't feel comfortable with the fact that 'for every net savvy person like me' there's another person who doesn't use the net, who might take it for granted that they are getting good service but in truth are effectively getting a bit ripped off. So, I warn people like this that I know of their prices being high on some items. If they take the p1ss out of people who trust them so much that they don't shop around what does it say about them?

Fair comment, but misinformation is rife due to the internet. I always think yeah, it may be more but this guy is making a living and albeit in a less devious way than the online retailer who is creaming as much, just in a different way. Its an old debate now and I think most agree to disagree on the internet vs. the shop debate, but having managed a large UK camera shop for years I can honestly tell you that it gets very seriously depressing when everyone assumes you are rip off merchants.

No mis-information.... Ive bought at least 20 items off the net that are in that shop and all are a LOT cheaper... I know their buying power is less and so on.... but, it comes down to the fact that we live in a modern world... should they make an extra £28 on those two tyres £50 vs £78 ??? That's a big difference for most pockets. Fact is... if you ask for a better price they knock some off, so why not mark them up more competitively. (they have Keo Laneo pedals in there at over £90 for another example, I paid £54)

It comes down to the question whether they'd rather 'make a few quid' and keep the sales up, or lose the sales. A few quid more is fair enough, but not the RRP tactic.

mfin

Oh... and what's so devious about these online retailers? ones such as Wiggle have fantastic pricing and great customer service?

mfin

bristolpete wrote:

I can honestly tell you that it gets very seriously depressing when everyone assumes you are rip off merchants.

Well, its down to pricing... simply that the purchase price for a smaller retailer might be more plus with the total items they sell it means that they have to work with a higher markup in order to cover their overheads and make a decent profit.

Fact is though, there is a market out there where price is a major consideration and the convenience of an online retailer is as attractive but in different ways to that of a local shop.

Back to price though, if you're too expensive then you'll lose out, the retail world is changing, I used to work in the computer industry and typical hardware markups are so low <20% that selling a computer to someone who will expect 'local service' for their purchase at no extra cost cripples the business too... hence the local computer shops can only make their money through pay-for support service. Would you buy an overpriced computer?

Its all just the way things are going for any high-demand commodities and cycling retailing has been changed beyond belief in the last 10 years.

That said... a cracking example is Epic Cycles, great service, great pricing, so it is possible as they seem to be doing very well and I like to buy something from them every time I go there just because of the way they do business.

bristolpete

mfin wrote:

Oh... and what's so devious about these online retailers? ones such as Wiggle have fantastic pricing and great customer service?

More to do with the fact that everyone assumes the bloke on the corner is ripping them off, which you say he may well be, but so are the websites. Bulk buying of which you refer to earlier. I would hazzard a guess that even though the margin and profit are smaller online, they make more money by buying big and selling cheap, the old Richer Sounds ethos.

As I said people agree to disagree and I have no problem paying shop prices - period.

zedders

Mfin,

£50 Vs £78? 30% + is a huge amount! A fkin huge amount of difference! I've had similar experiences. I would pay a small premium for goods from a LBS over internet - but 30% more? No thanks.!

I would like to support local businesses but you shouldn't have to ask for them to knock the price down should you?

Anyways I think I'll just have to be more organised and make sure I don't run out of turbojuice and cream at the same time!

rossere

I really don't mind paying a bit extra at a LBS if the customer service you get is good.

Having bought numerous items from my LBS on several occasions they must recognise my face, however, they are never welcoming and never offer any friendly chat or enquire about what bike I ride etc.. I know it is just a small thing but if they want me to be loyal to them then I would like at least a little something back in return.

To be honest the service I get from Wiggle is much better - they are convenient, reliable, and they always let me know about special offers. Even though they have become more expensive recently I still go to them as my first port of call.

mfin

bristolpete wrote:

More to do with the fact that everyone assumes the bloke on the corner is ripping them off, which you say he may well be, but so are the websites. Bulk buying of which you refer to earlier. I would hazzard a guess that even though the margin and profit are smaller online, they make more money by buying big and selling cheap, the old Richer Sounds ethos.

As I said people agree to disagree and I have no problem paying shop prices - period.

I still don't get how the online people are ripping people off...??? or do you mean certain online retailers that I don't use... cos I cant see that in the case of all the big boys Wiggle, CRC, Ribble, JE James, ProBike Kit, AlwaysRiding etc etc.

I agree that they're buying big and selling cheap, that's what I was sort of saying, but is something wrong with that? ...it fits market demand.

My problem is NOT with all LBS's ...its just with some of them, and particularly one of my local ones that Im using as an example. Their bike prices aren't actually that bad, but they take the p1ss with probably half of the other stuff.

Also, I don't assume the local guy is 'ripping me off' ..Im stating prices... if they really need to sell those tyres at nearly £40 each then fair enough, but I don't think that they do, they're not a small shop and have racks with a few of all the colours on display.

Percy Vera

My LBS's are all miserable.
They reply with one word answers, and I get the feeling they would rather be left alone.
If they were friendly I wouldn't mind paying 10% more than I would online & buy local.
I find that with cyclists in general, unless you're in their clic they aren't interested.
Present company not included off course

zedders

rossere wrote:

Having bought numerous items from my LBS on several occasions they must recognise my face, however, they are never welcoming and never offer any friendly chat or enquire about what bike I ride etc.. I know it is just a small thing but if they want me to be loyal to them then I would like at least a little something back in return.

Spot on. I've been in my LBS plenty of times. They must recognise by face! It's not the sort of face you would forget! :shock:

mfin

It is amazing that you can find people who work in bike shops that have the demeanour of Marvin off the Hitch Hiker's Guide. Bikes are recreational things, people escape the hum-drum on them don't they, you'd think people in the shops would be dynamic and gregarious by nature and by association to these escapist devices, but it seems very often to be to the contrary. Mind you, a lot of people who work in shops don't seem to like talking to people, Ive never understood that ...and miserable people who don't say a thing who work behind bars... jesus christ!

bristolpete

mfin wrote:

It is amazing that you can find people who work in bike shops that have the demeanour of Marvin off the Hitch Hiker's Guide. Bikes are recreational things, people escape the hum-drum on them don't they, you'd think people in the shops would be dynamic and gregarious by nature and by association to these escapist devices, but it seems very often to be to the contrary. Mind you, a lot of people who work in shops don't seem to like talking to people, Ive never understood that ...and miserable people who don't say a thing who work behind bars... jesus christ!

True. I think thats the sad paradox of retail in that people look to work with a product they love or have knowledge about yet when you go into retail and work late nights, bank holidays and Sundays you start to get a bit miffed and loose sight of what you like about it in that all your mates are out riding, yet you are in the shop selling wheels, or in the least trying to sell wheels to someone, telling them how great it is to be out riding on a day like today....

Catch 22 as they then say, but I can get them on franks bikes x pounds.....

Repeat to fade....ha ha ha...!!!!

mfin

bristolpete wrote:

mfin wrote:

It is amazing that you can find people who work in bike shops that have the demeanour of Marvin off the Hitch Hiker's Guide. Bikes are recreational things, people escape the hum-drum on them don't they, you'd think people in the shops would be dynamic and gregarious by nature and by association to these escapist devices, but it seems very often to be to the contrary. Mind you, a lot of people who work in shops don't seem to like talking to people, Ive never understood that ...and miserable people who don't say a thing who work behind bars... jesus christ!

True. I think thats the sad paradox of retail in that people look to work with a product they love or have knowledge about yet when you go into retail and work late nights, bank holidays and Sundays you start to get a bit miffed and loose sight of what you like about it in that all your mates are out riding, yet you are in the shop selling wheels, or in the least trying to sell wheels to someone, telling them how great it is to be out riding on a day like today....

Catch 22 as they then say, but I can get them on franks bikes x pounds.....

Repeat to fade....ha ha ha...!!!!

Seems though that you're saying that they might all start off in their new jobs 'all chirpy' but then get disillusioned over time and that this is what turns these otherwise 'dynamic individuals' into 'monotone shoe gazers'!

Dunno about that. One things for sure, if you were employing these people then you're in a position of control to take on the gregarious, approachable types and not the dullards.... problem is that many of these employers are so blind to this that it wouldn't be an issue (being dull themselves), either that or they're SO dull themselves that if someone turned up wanting a job that had a degree of drive and 'life' about them they'd find them a bit threatening and turn them away.

Good job we've got the internet where we can browse around with no feeling of obligation to buy and then pick up great deals ...cos for me the nearest properly stocked fantastic bike shop (Epic) is a 60 mile round trip, and I'm not doing that everytime I fancy getting something cos its impractical.

bristolpete

mfin wrote:

bristolpete wrote:

mfin wrote:

It is amazing that you can find people who work in bike shops that have the demeanour of Marvin off the Hitch Hiker's Guide. Bikes are recreational things, people escape the hum-drum on them don't they, you'd think people in the shops would be dynamic and gregarious by nature and by association to these escapist devices, but it seems very often to be to the contrary. Mind you, a lot of people who work in shops don't seem to like talking to people, Ive never understood that ...and miserable people who don't say a thing who work behind bars... jesus christ!

True. I think thats the sad paradox of retail in that people look to work with a product they love or have knowledge about yet when you go into retail and work late nights, bank holidays and Sundays you start to get a bit miffed and loose sight of what you like about it in that all your mates are out riding, yet you are in the shop selling wheels, or in the least trying to sell wheels to someone, telling them how great it is to be out riding on a day like today....

Catch 22 as they then say, but I can get them on franks bikes x pounds.....

Repeat to fade....ha ha ha...!!!!

Seems though that you're saying that they might all start off in their new jobs 'all chirpy' but then get disillusioned over time and that this is what turns these otherwise 'dynamic individuals' into 'monotone shoe gazers'!

Dunno about that. One things for sure, if you were employing these people then you're in a position of control to take on the gregarious, approachable types and not the dullards.... problem is that many of these employers are so blind to this that it wouldn't be an issue (being dull themselves), either that or they're SO dull themselves that if someone turned up wanting a job that had a degree of drive and 'life' about them they'd find them a bit threatening and turn them away.

Good job we've got the internet where we can browse around with no feeling of obligation to buy and then pick up great deals ...cos for me the nearest properly stocked fantastic bike shop (Epic) is a 60 mile round trip, and I'm not doing that everytime I fancy getting something cos its impractical.

Maybe, but you have pooh poohed everything I have said, so I think we have different opionions.

ride_whenever

Running a lbs is not for things for serious cyclists. It's that simple.

In oxford we some some really good shops, one in particular stands out as an oasis of bike bling...

But they'll never sell any of it. They cannot afford to purchase the top end stuff in bulk because they wont shift it, and serious cyclists are normally very particular about parts so stocking them is impractical. I think we'll see more lbs running big online shops to increase their catchment area.

At the end of the day, people who know what they want will go online, lbs are primarily for things you need to try on, emergency purchases, and bikes. Then repairs for all the people who use bikes as 'just transport'

APIII

guilliano wrote:

I work in a LBS so am biased obviously. I do think that both have their place. I have bought stuff from the net myself as my boss simply couldn't match prices, but (especially for beginners) a good LBS with staff that just want you to enjoy bikes as much as them is truly invaluable. I wouldn't have gotten so into bikes as I am without the shop I now work in.

Do you work in Buckingham Bikes? You may well have sold me a track pump on Friday. I could have gone online and got it cheaper, but sometimes I don't actually know what I need, so good advice from an LBS can be worth paying for in these instances. I think the reason people get narked about prices, is the fact that most LBS sell everything at RRP. Nothing reall wrong with that, but the UK is the only country in Europe where RRP's are standard practice AFAIK. Go into 2 bike shops in France and you'll get different prices for the same product, that reflect the running costs/buying power/margins of the shop.

Pross

It's a tricky one and covers many areas such as my other hobby of fishing. The problem is that if people go more and more to online retailers the shops will start to die out unless they have a good market in repair work and then we'll be stuck when it comes to trying before we buy. But the costs of running a shop against running a well stocked warehouse means they can't keep the prices competetive and most of us have limited budgets. For me I'll pay an extra 5 or 10% in a shop if the service is friendly and knowledgable (again, not just cycling but electricals, fishing tackle etc.) and feel sorry for shop owners who put in a lot of time and effort giving good advice and helping people get the correct size only for that person to then buy online. However, some shops do themselves no favours with their attitude and probably don't deserve to stay in business!

holybinch

I agree with most of the above.
If I pay 5, 10, even up to 15% more, I expect to receive service in exchange.
My LBS doesn't provide that, so now, if I need something, I go to my not-so-Local BS, where they seem to give a damn about me.

If it's a chore to serve me, then do another job, won't you?!

fungus_the_muffin_man

When buying from shops attitude has a lot to do with it. My LBS has a couldn't be arsed attitude. Then after taking my MTB bike in to get serviced charged me £65 for it! Which for a bike seems a wee bit excessive. Plus he was just so miserable. It was almost as though he was doing me the favour of having to pay him money to sort my bike out. I've since looked at buying the odd tool of him etc.. and you just get cold shouldered. Unless your a parent coming in to buy one of his overpriced bikes for their kids christmas pressie he doesn't want to know you. So I've just given up on him to be honest.

I then went all the way to Preston when looking for my latest bike to a very well known and well respected bike shop owner/ fitter. He went through the motions of going through a few bikes with me, but I came away feeling that he couldn't be arsed if I bought of him or not. Perhaps I didn't look like the kind of person who really was going to pay him £2000 for a bike? :roll:

I then went to all the way to Epic cycles and I've never had service like it. They were friendly willing and helpful through out the whole process. Infact I was that impressed I bought my bike of them.
,

Now If I had a LBS like that i'd be well chuffed but I haven't so it's internet shopping all the way for me.

Escargot

Jeez man. All these lame sounding LBS' makes me sad.

Again I cannot do anything but praise the LBS' in Milton Keynes as they're all first class - hence they get pretty much all of my money. I've even stopped buying SIS from Tesco.

Phil Corley's is reasonably priced and even as a new cyclist I'm greeted with a friendly 'hello' and there's no 'what can I do for you today' business, just relaxed browsing and assistance when needed. I guess the prices could be lower but they're not too disimilar to the net and I always seem to get 10% off automatically nowadays and this is the same with Twenty3C down the road (who are happy to talk bikes all day long if you pop in).

I've only been to Roy Pinks a few times but on both occasions there's friendly banter/conversation. Sadly his Giant stock is not particularly high end (so nothing to drool over) but he's been in the business for a long time so this must be intentional so he doesn't sink too much cash into stock.

I think Phil Corley's sale has ended now but he was slashing up to 40% of bikes recently (Trek, Cervelo, Specialized, Pinarello).

HonestAl

£65 for a service? Sounds a really good deal compared to a bike shop around me who "recommend" that you authorise them to spend up to £110 for a service, and that anything they feel you need after that they'll call you. Seems I needed a new SRAM chain and cassette - on a bike that couldn't have done more than 600 miles between buying it and taking it in. Well, that might be the case and I'm heavy on the chain / cassette - but a bill for £160 will be the last bill I pay to them.

fooshnicken

I live in Bristol and there a couple of LBS's I use regularly and several I avoid. I have found that the bigger 'chain' stores spend less time with customers finding out what they want and need. The smaller outfits are much better for this.

There is one LBS I use regularly for servicing my bikes about 7 miles from my house and another which is nearer , about two miles from my house. which I would and have gone into for advice and is where I bought my road bike.

There is another one fairly close to me and they have the worst customer service. The sales person knew next to nothing about the bikes I was interested in. I have been in there a couple of times and wouldn't spend any money in it.

However, the online retailers are able to sell items cheaper. In my experience, clothing and accessories are cheaper online and I am happy to buy these. Buying a new bike is more of a personal thing, I would rather visit a decent shop and talk to someone face to face about the bikes they have on offer.