Are all Full sussers quite 'weavy' on the front end ?

weeksy59

I've tried two now, a Cube AMS100 and a Specialized FSR Comp.

Both have a bit of weave going on at the front and feel very loose. Which to be honest is a bit horrible. So much so that the HArdrock sport i own is seeming more and more of a bargain.

You could also use 'flighty' 'loose' or 'unstable' as a description.

Seeing as both felt very simillar in that context (although quite different in most other ways) i'm wondering if this is just how new modern full Sussers feel ?

This is all on singletrack.

supersonic

It depends on the geometry. Steep head angles tend to make the bike feel twitchy and fast handling: slacker angles can make them feel more stable, but slow steering and less weight over the wheel.

However stem length, bars and other factors have an influence.

dave_hill

And how the supension is set up too. If it isn't right for you it'll feel awful.

scottyjohn

I moved from a Spesh Rockhopper and felt very si milar on my new trance. For me it seemed that I had a habit of using the top tube of the HT as a stabiliser which stopped the bike wobbling especially in jumps, but the trance crossbar is dipped so I didnt have that stabiliser. Although I think Im used to it now, its just really different.

scottyjohn

Sorry should have said that the crossbar was gripping between my knees!

Daz555

weeksy59 wrote:

I
You could also use 'flighty' 'loose' or 'unstable' as a description.

I have an FSR XC Comp and would describe it as the opposite.

llamafarmer

Daz555 wrote:

weeksy59 wrote:

I
You could also use 'flighty' 'loose' or 'unstable' as a description.

I have an FSR Comp and would describe it as the opposite.

If weeksy is talking about the FSR XC, then I'd also agree with you Daz, I certainly didn't find it twitchy. I'm an XC boy at heart, so I love steep, pointy bikes - not so much twitchy as agile and responsive

REMF

i have a large frame XC comp, and wouldn't describe it as flighty, but nor too would i describe it as a steep pointy bike, the fork in particular seems slack and not twitchy on downhill runs.

llamafarmer

REMF wrote:

i have a large frame XC comp, and wouldn't describe it as flighty, but nor too would i describe it as a steep pointy bike, the fork in particular seems slack and not twitchy on downhill runs.

Sorry, that was supposed to be 2 seperate points in my last post, that might not have come across. As you say, the FSR is pretty relaxed.

Fridge-Seal

yeah, someone may have built it funny (super long stem/ seat post really far forward/back, narrow bars/ like a million spacers below the stem),
they may have specced it with flexy components (e.g. not stiff stem, bars, really thin stancioned forks-I have also been told can cause this)
Hope that helps

crust

nope, both bikes are completely standard, nearly new.

The AMS100 is mine.

Dont think Weeksy's description is very good.

I'd say that the Cube's steering is very light/quick requiring very little input, quite hard to keep on track on narrow tracks

My take is that the bike is way better than me - I've not done a huge amount of mountain biking - and that its reacting to my inept inputs.

I'm trying looking further down the track and gripping less tightly.

The bars are Easton 50 and the stem is a standard one - 105 I think.

Would like to make it less quick steering, though.

crust

weeksy59

See to me, it doesn't feel like that. It feels more than just 'quick/responsive' etc.

It feels almost unstable.

You go along an 8" rut and the bike is almost wobbling from side to side. every minor bump/stone makes them go all over the place.

The front end almost feels detached from the rest of the bike, they don't move in unison.

supersonic

Maybe they were too big for you?

weeksy59

supersonic wrote:

Maybe they were too big for you?

Both of the riders are smaller than me.

Ride on Cube runs his seat same height as me, rider on Spec runs it lower but we swapped seat posts over and i set to my usual height.

Frames are both strictly speaking a bit small for me if anything.

however blokey as above who let me try his Cube was measured up and should in theory be on the correct size but feels the same sort of issues.

dave_hill

weeksy59 wrote:

See to me, it doesn't feel like that. It feels more than just 'quick/responsive' etc.

It feels almost unstable.

You go along an 8" rut and the bike is almost wobbling from side to side. every minor bump/stone makes them go all over the place.

The front end almost feels detached from the rest of the bike, they don't move in unison.

The thing is with a full suspension frame, no matter how hard the designers and engineers try, you're ALWAYS going to get a bit of flex between the main frame and the swing arm - it's in the nature of the beast. Some are better than others but you'll never git rid of it totally.

It's a case of practice and perseverance. If you're used to riding nothing but hardtails it WILL feel odd at first, and again if he suspension isn't set up properly for you (or isn't capable of being set up properly), it just makes things worse.

You've already said yourself that every little bump and stone pushes you all over. To my mind that's nothing that sorting the rebound damping out properly wouldn't cure.

crust

dave_hill wrote:

weeksy59 wrote:

See to me, it doesn't feel like that. It feels more than just 'quick/responsive' etc.

It feels almost unstable.

You go along an 8" rut and the bike is almost wobbling from side to side. every minor bump/stone makes them go all over the place.

The front end almost feels detached from the rest of the bike, they don't move in unison.

The thing is with a full suspension frame, no matter how hard the designers and engineers try, you're ALWAYS going to get a bit of flex between the main frame and the swing arm - it's in the nature of the beast. Some are better than others but you'll never git rid of it totally.

It's a case of practice and perseverance. If you're used to riding nothing but hardtails it WILL feel odd at first, and again if he suspension isn't set up properly for you (or isn't capable of being set up properly), it just makes things worse.

You've already said yourself that every little bump and stone pushes you all over. To my mind that's nothing that sorting the rebound damping out properly wouldn't cure.

Sorting the rebound damping - how?

More or less?

My first bike with proper suspension so its all new.


Thanks

crust

dave_hill

crust wrote:

Sorting the rebound damping - how?

More or less?

My first bike with proper suspension so its all new.


Thanks

crust

Assuming that you've got the sag set properly (i.e the spring rates are properly adjusted) then setting compression and rebound damping is really a case of trial and error until you feel that the bike is riding properly for you.

You need to find a small loop to ride which includes quite a varied bit of terrain which you can ride repeatedley while you set up and test.

First up you need to set the compression damping. This governs how fast the suspension compresses when you hit a bump. More damping will stop the suspension compressing on every little bump and ripple, but this can mean that unless you get a really big hit the ride can feel harsh. Less damping will mean that smaller bumps get the suspension moving and it will feel plusher, but there is the risk of the suspension feeling like it is "wallowing" when cornering.

Once you've got the compression damping sorted then start on the rebound damping. This governs how quickly the suspension recovers after it has been compressed. Too little damping and the sprigns will recover very quickly - this can cause the bike to "ping" off obstacles or make it feel like the front end is goign to wash out all the time. Too much rebound damping will cause the suspension to pack down on repeated rapid hits and may eventually bottom out.

The instructions for your forks and shock absorber will explain how to set sag, compression damping and rebound damping. If not, get on the manufacturer's websites and download the instructions.

All the above assumes that you CAN adjust these settings - you may find that cheaper suspension may not have all the features mentioned above.

starseven

Hi weeksy

I think I know what your getting at. I 'm in the market for a new mtb bike and have been trying loads lately, some full sus, some hardtail. I also ride a lot on road everthing including fixed. My present MTB is fully rigid and really pins a corner but kills me after 10 or 20 miles.

My first impresion when I get on a full suspension bike is of wonkiness, I guess its to be expected they are designed to move up and down and bend in the middle !! All those linkages will always have a bit more flex than a hardtail bike.

Some designs are better than others and set up is important but any suspension, front or rear is gonna allow more lateral flex than rigid but the pay off is you may be able ride for longer before your knackered.

Top of my list so far is a Giant Anthem but I also hope to try a Giant XTC 29er as that could be of both worlds.

Anonymous

starseven, you're making daft assumptions.
My hardtail, being a much lighter duty and weight frame than my full suss bikes, flexes more than either full suss.
Not one of the three however, has noticeable flex whilst riding

_Ferret_

It depends on what you're going from to what you're going to.

I notice flex from my hartail with 80mm front suspension to my 140mm fully. Still I have never had a wobbly situation. I notice more flex in the different wheels than in the frame itself. Still, if you have more travel you will have more flex, the way to combat this is better guides for the suspension, which means more weight.
It will be a comprimise - more suspension with low weight means more flex.

A feeling of unstable or loose sounds like something a bit more serious. Maybe you were just going faster than normal and your body started shaking out of fear

Anonymous

_Ferret_ wrote:

Still, if you have more travel you will have more flex

no, no, no, no, no.

Let's take two extreme examples - a World Cup DH bike, loads of travel, incredibly strong frame Vs a world Cup XC full susser, not much travel, some quite noticeable flex due to extreme weight savings.

Amount of travel has nothing to do with frame flex.

starseven

yeehaamcgee wrote:

starseven, you're making daft assumptions.
My hardtail, being a much lighter duty and weight frame than my full suss bikes, flexes more than either full suss.
Not one of the three however, has noticeable flex whilst riding

An assumption would be an opinion made without knowledge, like "you are a knob" which I dont really know although I suspect with effort I could find the evidence.

My reply to the OP is based on experience and sufficient knowledge of mechanics that a piece of metal with linkages will flex more than the equivilent piece of metal without.

Anonymous

right, you're one of those eh? :roll:

Would you like me to make force measurements on my hardtail and full suss frames? would you like a complete thesis on the subject?

There's far more variables involved than "there's a linkage", such as... What are the linkages made from? What is the load bearing surface made from? What kind of bearings are involved?

For example, it's quit common for a full suss frame to be made from a more rigid blend of Aluminium. Hardtails are commonly designed to flex a certain amount, in order to maintain rider comfort, wherear a suspension system works most at it's best when the only movement allowed is that which is controlled by the pivot/slider actions.

But, you probably already knew that, huh? :roll:

And disregarding this for a moment, the question was regarding the front end of full suss frames.

dave_hill

yeehaamcgee wrote:

right, you're one of those eh? :roll:

Epic!!

starseven

yeehaamcgee wrote:

right, you're one of those eh? :roll:


You opened your post by insulting me, what do you expect???

paul.skibum

handbags down boys!

I agree with Yee though - flex doesn't just come from putting a link in, its not like we are talkign about cutting the rear triangle off a HT and putting a joint in it.

I dont know either of the bikes the OP referred to but the Cube is quite a steep racey bike and maybe a mite twitchy but probably not flexy and I believe that your average rider struggle really to spot flex and deflection in forks and frames in any case.

I'd suggest the bikes you tested may not be right for you but certainly all full sussers are not twitchy - my Heckler certainly isn't.

The thing I notice though is that everytiem I ride either my HT or FS after my rigid commuter they feel like they wallow about for the first 100 yards as I get used to the slightly less connected feel.

Anonymous

starseven wrote:

You opened your post by insulting me, what do you expect???

Actually, I didn't. I said you were making daft assumptions, which you were.

I can insult you if you'd like (hey, some people are into that kind of thing :shock: )

starseven

No,No, please accept my apoligy, you are correct, of course. How dare I question you ? consider me back in my place now.

_Ferret_

okay, my point was probably more of an overview than I meant it to be.

If you consider front suspension, on what sounds like an all mountain bike. It will feel more flexy than the front suspension on a hardtail bike, assuming this hardtail bike has 80mm of suspension. I'm talking about comparable price ranges here too - not top of the range stuff that most of us can't afford anyway.Rear suspension is another matter altogether as there are so many different types out there.
I'm sure I don't have to go into too much detail that everyone will understand that a longer tube will flex more than a shorter one - yes you can reduce this via materials and structure but then you are in another price bracket again.
Frankly I don't think the issue lies with the amount of travel alone. It is more likely a combination of factors from the grips all the way to the tyres...

weeksy59

Tried the Cube AMS125 again today, apparently he'd put firmer suspension setting on it before todays ride, i'm starting to see some of the Full Suss appeal.

Whilst it may not have been any quicker accross the terrain, it was a lot 'nicer'. You barely notice the bumps, stones rocks and tree roots on the Full-susser.

My decision when we do Cycle to work may have just got a bit harder. Expect a thread in March titled "Which full sus for £800 in Halfords" although i do worry becuase i'm restricted to Halfords that i may have a problem with that and have to go HT.

bails87

Problem Solved