Mendrisio

Superoo

Doesn't anyone think it is ludicrous how so many are pointing fingers at the
Kazakhs Andrey Kashechkin and Alexandre Vinokourov for being allowed to compete at the World Championships while seemingly ignoring that Great Britain's team captain David Millar has served a suspension for doping as well :shock: I wonder how Dave Brailsford can defend that choice while claiming his Team sky will not employ anyone with a doping past. :?:

andyp

No. Millar has shown repentance for what he did. Vinokourov and Kashechkin have not.

Superoo

Oh ok, I see, so Millar's public show of "repentance" justifies things?
If Millar had not been caught the possibility he would have continued doping and cheating is undeniably there.
Also, maybe the riders who were cheated out of a victory or a podium place in the races which Millar won during his dope days might see this from a different perspective, no?

disgruntledgoat

Superoo wrote:

Oh ok, I see, so Millar's public show of "repentance" justifies things?
If Millar had not been caught the possibility he would have continued doping and cheating is undeniably there.
Also, maybe the riders who were cheated out of a victory or a podium place in the races which Millar won during his dope days might see this from a different perspective, no?

Ummm yeah, but but then you don't pick the GB squad and Brailsford presumably has trust in him. PLus, when he did get caught, Millar didn't twist and turn and moan about his human rights. He stood up, took the ban, talked to various authorities about how and why athletes dope then bought a stake in a resolutely anti-doping team.

iainf72

Having a quick look at the people who finished behind Millar in some of his victories, I don't think many of them were "cheated"

andyp

Superoo wrote:

Oh ok, I see, so Millar's public show of "repentance" justifies things?
If Millar had not been caught the possibility he would have continued doping and cheating is undeniably there.
Also, maybe the riders who were cheated out of a victory or a podium place in the races which Millar won during his dope days might see this from a different perspective, no?

He was caught though, so your premise has no logic. Those riders that Millar beat, such as Mick Rogers, probably continued doping and cheating their way to the podium. Or do you think Millar was a lone bad egg?

Harry182

Millar never tested positive yet admitted doping, has done his time and has come back with a strong and vocal anti-doping stance.

Vino + Kash tested positive and IIRC continue to protest their innocence.

There is a difference.

Superoo

So you are saying that Michael Rogers is a cheat as well? Where is your proof?
You are stating that, in fact maybe all professional cyclists were/are bad eggs?
According to the Millar fans it was ok to cheat because others were cheating too?
I don't know how many riders beaten by Millar were doped but were they caught?
Fact is: Millar was.

iainf72

Mick Rogers has been linked to the Freiberg convoy and also hasn't been very good at TT's since he stopped getting "training plans" from Dr Ferrari.

Triple World TT champ suddenly can't win the local chipper - What's that all about?

Superoo

2004 David Miller Confesses to EPO use after traces found in flat. Banned for two years.

If those traces hadn't been found, would Millar have confessed?

calvjones

Not sure what your point is here: look at the legal cack that British Athletics got into by banning Chambers from the national team in a similar situation. They had to back down in the end (although there are specific performance goals in athletics for selection unlike cycling I accept).

Surely a repented doper is better than the likes of Kash? I suspect what Brailsford meant with respect to Sky is that he didn't want to hire anyone whose past might come back to bite them next year (e.g. Bertie).

I will admit that there was widespread credulity in the media when Hayles was withdrawn from competition last year (?) for 50%+ hct, (which kinda speaks to your basic point) but not really on this forum IIRC.

RichN95.

Superoo wrote:

2004 David Miller Confesses to EPO use after traces found in flat. Banned for two years.

If those traces hadn't been found, would Millar have confessed?

Probably not, but when he was caught he gave more information than he had to - for example that he was doped for his World Champs win, which he then got stripped of.

Kléber

Superoo wrote:

2004 David Miller Confesses to EPO use after traces found in flat. Banned for two years.

If those traces hadn't been found, would Millar have confessed?

Who knows? That's a question that can't be answered. Only vials were found and with a good lawyer, just having some glass vials is not strictly proof of doping, just as owning a gun doesn't mean you shot someone.

Millar's doing a lot of good these days, whether in supporting Garmin's ethos or in sitting on WADA's athlete panels. Some might take affront at this.

Indeed I think my very first post on this forum was to ask if he can find a helmet capable of fitting over his halo. But give me Millar anytime over the likes of Vino. One is showing the way, the other is living in the dark ages.

Kléber

iainf72 wrote:

Mick Rogers has been linked to the Freiberg convoy and also hasn't been very good at TT's since he stopped getting "training plans" from Dr Ferrari.

You can read more on Rogers and Ferrari here: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/health/ar ... link-10503 , that's not a link but the T-Mobile PR man saying Rogers was getting "training plans" by Ferrari.

The same article also includes a reference to Marcos Serrano spending four days in hospital and some doubt as to the reasons why. Worrying.

Pokerface

Superoo wrote:

I wonder how Dave Brailsford can defend that choice while claiming his Team sky will not employ anyone with a doping past. :?:

Simple - Millar doesn't work for Brailsford. He rides for GB - and while Brailsford is the figurehead at the top - he doesn't pick the team. Team Sky? That's a different story and he can hire anyone he wants.

iainf72

I think Pierre or Bobby did an interview with Holy David earlier this year.

They might come back soon and interview Father Vaughters....

BikingBernie

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Millar didn't twist and turn and moan about his human rights. He stood up, took the ban, talked to various authorities about how and why athletes dope then bought a stake in a resolutely anti-doping team.

But let's not forget the shameful way he denounced Philippe Gaumont when Gaumont 'spat in the soup' about what had gone on at Cofidis. Millar said of Gaumont:

"He's a nutter, but what's dangerous is that he's very gifted at manipulating people; at the moment he seems to be manipulating the judge, the police and the press.” "He's behaving like an absolute lunatic. It's guerilla warfare against the team."

disgruntledgoat

BikingBernie wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Millar didn't twist and turn and moan about his human rights. He stood up, took the ban, talked to various authorities about how and why athletes dope then bought a stake in a resolutely anti-doping team.

But let's not forget the shameful way he denounced Philippe Gaumont when Gaumont 'spat in the soup' about what had gone on at Cofidis. Millar said of Gaumont:

"He's a nutter, but what's dangerous is that he's very gifted at manipulating people; at the moment he seems to be manipulating the judge, the police and the press.” "He's behaving like an absolute lunatic. It's guerilla warfare against the team."

Abslutely not, that was pretty shameful. But, having experience in my own life of being caught out, and knowing you've been caught out... I think Millar did what most people would do as the net was closing in. Lie and lie some more in the hope that, somehow, the chickens won't come home to roost. It's not right, but (given the fact that if I try to, I can still feel the horrible sick feeling I had) it is an understandable, human response.

I think people often forget that sporting cheats are still human.

Tom Butcher

Superoo wrote:

Doesn't anyone think it is ludicrous how so many are pointing fingers at the
Kazakhs Andrey Kashechkin and Alexandre Vinokourov for being allowed to compete at the World Championships while seemingly ignoring that Great Britain's team captain David Millar has served a suspension for doping as well :shock: I wonder how Dave Brailsford can defend that choice while claiming his Team sky will not employ anyone with a doping past. :?:

Well I think if you've served your time you should be allowed to compete - I don't have a problem with Millar, Vino or Kash competing at the worlds.

As someone else said above - Team Sky and the GB team are two different entities - so Brailsford isn't being inconsistent here - even if he did have a veto over who rides for GB (which for all I know he may have). Also no reason why a team shouldn't choose riders who are whiter than white - they have their own agenda just because a rider is allowed to compete shouldn't mean a team has to hire him. Even if Sky decided to hire Millar but not Vino because of their attitudes post doping ban I can't see how that would be inconsistent - because as others point out there is a real difference in how they have acted in public since.