What carbon road bike?
Comments
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aracer wrote:The difference is that making bicycle frames got worked out a long time ago, and nothing much has changed. Even making carbon frames has been largely sorted for many years now. As such there's really very little to choose between different frames (much as people try to convince themselves there is when they've spent a lot of money), with the "generic" frames having much the same technology as the expensive ones, so it all comes down to marketing.
Good point. I guess bike frames haven't evolved much over the years but have seen smaller development steps.
I do see what you're saying but, to use Bianchi as an example, they produced a range of carbon C2C models (only just replaced) which had funky curved downtubes/geometry. Given a radical departure from the norm this would have needed some sort of development and test campaign. Again their new Infinito frames are a departure again from the existing C2C range and even though the newly introduced cable routings seems like insignificant features, putting holes in the side of a structural member is a stressman's nightmare, and especially in carbon as the frame will fall to bits if you're not careful. Add to this the task of weight reduction whilst maintaining a large safety margin and I can't see how this doesn't involve a fair amount of work for one company.
I guess I'm just passing comment based on limited knowlege of the industry but am genuinely surprised that the price differences are purely down to marketing/market positioning etc.0 -
Tempted by the Felt F4 any one any experience
Narrorwed the list down to three
Felt F4
Kuota Khama
Planet x Sl Carbon
any thoughts much appreciatedGetting there0 -
I agree that you pay extra for the big names like Trek etc but after reading through this thread it got me thinking.
The big companies who are first out with the latest frame technology are the ones who invested in the R&D. Once they come to market with a new frame, it very quickly gets copied by other manufacturers in a far away land. Obviously the big manufacturers also design and make a lot of stuff that doesn't make it to market, but this still costs them a lot of ££££, so they have to make that back also on the successful products.
So, with the branded frames they probably aren't that much better than the generic frames, probably not even noticeable to most club cyclists. However, there's always an exception to the rule.
Also, as it has already been said the big companies spend millions on advertising and sponsorship and they have to get that back somehow.
Generally, if people pay more for something they think it's better, true in some cases but not always. As it's been said here also, Trek etc have a marketing department that know all about human behaviour etc and will tell you what they want you to believe, that coupled with your cycling hero riding their bike....ca-ching!!!0 -
Definitely. There probably isn't that much difference with generic frames at all and it probably works out way, way cheaper for companies like PX as they share the workload (like Toyota/Citroen/Pugeot did with the Aygo/C1/106).
Based on the number of happy customers here PX have obviously got it right but fortunately for the big players there are enough people out there that want the big names too.0 -
Spending £1700 it wise to get the best frame you can. That is why i suggest the 2009 Giant TCR Advanced 3 bike for £1600. To buy the frame alone would cost £1200. The frame is a winner. It won't matter it has Shimano 105. If need to upgrade, you can upgrade the wheels and gears later, and whatever else, and still enjoy the frame. The 2010 model has so few changes. Second suggestion is the Orbea Onix Giro http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/orbea.htm
On closer examination the Focus bikes are not a good deal as they first appear. The 2009 Cayo Pro at £2000 only comes with £122 wheels. Is the rest of bike worth so much? I don't think so.
You getting a cheaper winter bike now so i suggest the £999 Orbea Onix Vuelta which has cheaper parts, but a decent T700 frame.
I heard on forums there is problem with the SRAM RED compact. The chain rubs against the front derailleur on a certain gear, no matter what you do.
Stay clear of Ribble unless your a idiot, want a load of grief, and want to be treated as a enemy for handing over money. Who cares if they cheap. They don't deserve any business for the contempt they give there customers.0 -
I think the OP is making a sensible move by getting a 6-700 bike to get a taste for road cycling. By the time you add in all the kit - thats easy over a grand.
Its a law of diminishing returns on bikes. Once you hit a grand or so - you have to pay a huge increase for very little improvement. I doubt a beginner would notice. I've had bikes for decades and my cheap heavy fixy is as fun to ride as my carbon race bike.
I saw a post on road beginners the other day with a guy complaining about his £3000 bike that he bought mail order. Thats like a learner driver buying a Ferrari.0 -
Tony Mc wrote:Tempted by the Felt F4 any one any experience
Narrorwed the list down to three
Felt F4
Kuota Khama
Planet x Sl Carbon
any thoughts much appreciated
Don't know what prices you are paying\quoted ....but heres my thoughts
Planet X - got to be the best value, from the prices I have seen - don't forget they charge £100 to assemble it for you.
Kharma - What I brought - I would say this is the most handsome bike out of the ones you mention, which is why i brought it !- factor in some cash for a tyre upgrade though.0 -
Can i ask advice on road bikes for winter. Now i believe i need a bit with eyelets for mudguards but the man at my LBS was saying there are some new mud guards out that dont require these and also fit on bikes that are not traditional winter bikes.0
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Rick Draper wrote:Can i ask advice on road bikes for winter. Now i believe i need a bit with eyelets for mudguards but the man at my LBS was saying there are some new mud guards out that dont require these and also fit on bikes that are not traditional winter bikes.
Crudracers or SKS blades. they are not as good as fitting proper guards to a bikes with eyes though (IMO)0 -
Plenty of opinions, for what it's worth my three are:
1. Try before you buy-and if that's not possible, then walk away, there are plenty of people whol will allow it.
2. Get the bike to fit you. Get yourself properly measured up by someone who knows what they are doing and takes time doing it. Someone who looks at you, says, "you're 5ft 8, it's 56 ins for you"-that is not measuring you up. Every measurement, your reach, your inside leg, etc, etc. You are paying a lot of money, and don't want injuries caused by an expensive and badly-fitting machine.
3. Decide what you want the bike to do for you, and choose accordingly. Is it for Sportives or time trials? Or something else? There are plenty of guides that will point you in the right direction, but only you know what you want it for.
Good luck0 -
Deff deff the above is a must , if they are not prepared to take the time to loan you a bike for ten mins so you can try it out, and then poss spend your hard earned money in their store then you say ta ta and find someone who will. AND there are a lot of firms and companies who will bend over backwards to get your custom, as any bike enthusiast and shop will tell you if you sell a bike properly you will come back for more and more stuff as you begin to trust them!
Remember, if they dont give a toss..... Then neither do you!!
More importantly as prev stated get one YOU like, YOU WANT, and YOU CAN AFFORD !!!
BTW I ride a 2010 specaillized Tarmac Elite, well worth a look at £1500 ( give or take)G.H.Allum0 -
Thanks. Placed the order for my bike the other day and should well have it possibly before the weekend.0
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TBH I don't hold with the whole "winter bike" thing. Carbon is as (if not more) weather proof than an alloy frame. I'll be riding my Defy Advanced through winter with a set of the Crud racer guards, just keep the drive train clean and lubed. What did you go for in the end Rick?0
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I have bought a 2009 Felt F4 from Wiggle. Good deal on it really as its come down from £1900 to £1330. It is annoying me somewhat that i am having to wait for them to do a safety check on the bike before its sent out. Its been 2 full days now and no sign of it been sent. They should IMHO have a declaration you can tick on the site stipulating that you will do your own safety check when the bike arrives.0
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guilliano wrote:TBH I don't hold with the whole "winter bike" thing. Carbon is as (if not more) weather proof than an alloy frame. I'll be riding my Defy Advanced through winter with a set of the Crud racer guards, just keep the drive train clean and lubed. What did you go for in the end Rick?
The frame is mostly irrelevant - the point of a winter bike is that you have one with cheaper parts so its not as big a deal when the grit on the road corrodes them. Once the roads are gritted (and I guess it depends on where you live as to how often that is) then things will corrode unless you wash your bike very often. Rims in particular won't last long unless they're kept grit-free.More problems but still living....0 -
Is that really true when most components are made from aluminium ?0
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sandbag wrote:Spending £1700 it wise to get the best frame you can. That is why i suggest the 2009 Giant TCR Advanced 3 bike for £1600. To buy the frame alone would cost £1200. The frame is a winner. It won't matter it has Shimano 105. If need to upgrade, you can upgrade the wheels and gears later, and whatever else, and still enjoy the frame. The 2010 model has so few changes. Second suggestion is the Orbea Onix Giro http://www.epic-cycles.co.uk/orbea.htm
On closer examination the Focus bikes are not a good deal as they first appear. The 2009 Cayo Pro at £2000 only comes with £122 wheels. Is the rest of bike worth so much? I don't think so.
You getting a cheaper winter bike now so i suggest the £999 Orbea Onix Vuelta which has cheaper parts, but a decent T700 frame.
I heard on forums there is problem with the SRAM RED compact. The chain rubs against the front derailleur on a certain gear, no matter what you do.
Stay clear of Ribble unless your a idiot, want a load of grief, and want to be treated as a enemy for handing over money. Who cares if they cheap. They don't deserve any business for the contempt they give there customers.
The TCR Advanced 3 is on my shopping list if I end up buying new, but the 105 was putting me off although the frame, as you say, is very good. But then you could get the TCR Advanced 2 for an extra £250 and it comes with Ultegra
Cycling never gets any easier, you just go faster - Greg LeMond0 -
A decent frame stays with you long time, you get more out it. Better technology, construction, better ride usually. If you go for a bike with lesser frame and better gears, then where do you go from there? You be next wanting a better frame and end up buying a new bike all again in less distant future where technological advances haven't progressed so much on from a decent frame in that time span. The investment in a better frame is more worthwhile. I think you end up with a better frame in the end, from the big factory firms, due to the bigger research and competitiveness.
@Gav888
Good luck getting one or going for a test drive, they been out of stock for quite awhile. Upgrading the gears be far from your mind. Depending on your requirements, i say the 3 and upgrade later.0 -
Changed my mind on bike choice and as wiggle had now sent it to the workshop i have been able to change it. Gone for a Felt F3 SL as its on Sram red and comes with a better pair of rims than the F4 which is something i was looking to upgrade so it has worked out well.0
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Escargot wrote:Is that really true when most components are made from aluminium ?
Yes, it is.
Aluminium is highly probe to localised corrosion in the presence of chloride ions - i.e. salt.
Didn't you say further up the thread that you worked in design in the aerospace industry?
If so, your question is a bit worrying!0 -
Or even 'highly prone'!0
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Chris James wrote:Escargot wrote:Is that really true when most components are made from aluminium ?
Yes, it is.
Aluminium is highly probe to localised corrosion in the presence of chloride ions - i.e. salt.
Didn't you say further up the thread that you worked in design in the aerospace industry?
If so, your question is a bit worrying!
Er, not really. Working in something as broad as aerospace design does not make one an expert in all fields/materials/etc. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the aerospace industry but I'm sure if you were you might see the joke in your comment
Naturally I can't comment on all grades of aluminium (as we have a specific materials list to work with) so there will always be exeptions but from what I understand a great deal of aluminium bikes/components are made from 6061 or similar as it has a high level of corrosion resistance even to salt water.
Maybe my comment should have been
"Is that really true when most components are made from 6061-T6 aluminium ?" 0 -
Escargot wrote:Chris James wrote:Escargot wrote:Is that really true when most components are made from aluminium ?
Yes, it is.
Aluminium is highly probe to localised corrosion in the presence of chloride ions - i.e. salt.
Didn't you say further up the thread that you worked in design in the aerospace industry?
If so, your question is a bit worrying!
Er, not really. Working in something as broad as aerospace design does not make one an expert in all fields/materials/etc. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the aerospace industry but I'm sure if you were you might see the joke in your comment
Naturally I can't comment on all grades of aluminium (as we have a specific materials list to work with) so there will always be exeptions but from what I understand a great deal of aluminium bikes/components are made from 6061 or similar as it has a high level of corrosion resistance even to salt water.
Maybe my comment should have been
"Is that really true when most components are made from 6061-T6 aluminium ?"
I have an MSc in Corrosion Science and Engineering from UMIST and have worked in the aerospace industry since 1994.
Initially applying corrosion resistant coatings, mostly for aircraft engine components (Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, GE, MTU, Turbomeca), but also for some structural parts (Boeing flat and slat tracks and landing gear for MD).
The last five years I have worked in the aerospace fastener industry, most of which are made from various grades of aluminium alloys.
When I did my MSC it was a favourite complaint of my lecturers that design rarely, if ever, considered corrosion performance up front and they tended to be involved at the catastrophic failure stage!
Leaving that aside, a simple glance at aluminium framed windows (for example) will show white powdery deposits which are corrosion products.
Mudguards and regular washing will minimise the damage of running a groupset over winter. Most of the damage will be cosmetic rather than structural but that will still be annoying f you have shelled out for a Dura Ace groupset!0 -
Chris James wrote:I have an MSc in Corrosion Science and Engineering from UMIST and have worked in the aerospace industry since 1994.
Initially applying corrosion resistant coatings, mostly for aircraft engine components (Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, GE, MTU, Turbomeca), but also for some structural parts (Boeing flat and slat tracks and landing gear for MD).
The last five years I have worked in the aerospace fastener industry, most of which are made from various grades of aluminium alloys.
When I did my MSC it was a favourite complaint of my lecturers that design rarely, if ever, considered corrosion performance up front and they tended to be involved at the catastrophic failure stage!
Leaving that aside, a simple glance at aluminium framed windows (for example) will show white powdery deposits which are corrosion products.
Mudguards and regular washing will minimise the damage of running a groupset over winter. Most of the damage will be cosmetic rather than structural but that will still be annoying f you have shelled out for a Dura Ace groupset!
Great, many thanks for the career summary
An impressive CV but you should realise more than anyone that your *worrying* about my working in the aerospace industry is a joke given the industry is made up of specialists. Hence why you have, by your own admission, an MSc in as narrow a field as corrosion science. This is only highlighted by your last 5 years spent working in a field as equally, if not more narrow, as fasteners - how riveting
At the end of the day you should be no more worried about my lack of in depth knowledge in aluminium corrosion as I might be about yours on stress analysis.
Ultimately, I believe I know enough about aluminium to keep things from falling out of the sky and you've still to confirm my belief that 6061 is not particularly sensitive to salt water conditions - hence why it is used for bits of yachts, bikes, planes, cars etc. I'm not 100% you know given that the aerospace industry is not particularly concerned with salty environments but maybe you'd be good enough to find out.
To be honest I haven't a clue what grade window frames are made of but saying that they show white powdery deposits (indicating corrosion) is like saying that all metals are the same, which they clearly are not.
In any case bike components are often coated/plated to prevent/limit corrosion and that's why even my cheap old Carrera (with Sora and other cheap aluminium components/wheels) suffered no ill effects after 5 years of no cleaning whatsoever. Maybe there are some people here that have had bad experiences but providing you actually show your bike a little TLC once in a while (not too much to ask if you have a Dura Ace group) there's no reason why you cannot use an expensive bike through the winter as the kind of corrosion you're talking about doesn't happen overnight (even with untreated aluminium).0 -
Escargot wrote:Chris James wrote:I have an MSc in Corrosion Science and Engineering from UMIST and have worked in the aerospace industry since 1994.
Initially applying corrosion resistant coatings, mostly for aircraft engine components (Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, GE, MTU, Turbomeca), but also for some structural parts (Boeing flat and slat tracks and landing gear for MD).
The last five years I have worked in the aerospace fastener industry, most of which are made from various grades of aluminium alloys.
When I did my MSC it was a favourite complaint of my lecturers that design rarely, if ever, considered corrosion performance up front and they tended to be involved at the catastrophic failure stage!
Leaving that aside, a simple glance at aluminium framed windows (for example) will show white powdery deposits which are corrosion products.
Mudguards and regular washing will minimise the damage of running a groupset over winter. Most of the damage will be cosmetic rather than structural but that will still be annoying f you have shelled out for a Dura Ace groupset!
Great, many thanks for the career summary
An impressive CV but you should realise more than anyone that your *worrying* about my working in the aerospace industry is a joke given the industry is made up of specialists. Hence why you have, by your own admission, an MSc in as narrow a field as corrosion science. This is only highlighted by your last 5 years spent working in a field as equally, if not more narrow, as fasteners - how riveting
At the end of the day you should be no more worried about my lack of in depth knowledge in aluminium corrosion as I might be about yours on stress analysis.
Ultimately, I believe I know enough about aluminium to keep things from falling out of the sky and you've still to confirm my belief that 6061 is not particularly sensitive to salt water conditions - hence why it is used for bits of yachts, bikes, planes, cars etc. I'm not 100% you know given that the aerospace industry is not particularly concerned with salty environments but maybe you'd be good enough to find out.
To be honest I haven't a clue what grade window frames are made of but saying that they show white powdery deposits (indicating corrosion) is like saying that all metals are the same, which they clearly are not.
In any case bike components are often coated/plated to prevent/limit corrosion and that's why even my cheap old Carrera (with Sora and other cheap aluminium components/wheels) suffered no ill effects after 5 years of no cleaning whatsoever. Maybe there are some people here that have had bad experiences but providing you actually show your bike a little TLC once in a while (not too much to ask if you have a Dura Ace group) there's no reason why you cannot use an expensive bike through the winter as the kind of corrosion you're talking about doesn't happen overnight (even with untreated aluminium).
Ive a CSE grade 4 in maths - and have spent most of my career doing jobs that I can forget about at 5pm......and have flexitime...
However I ride a 6061 , Sora to work daily, wash it about 4 times a year, its still going strong - this doesn't however inspire me to take my new best bike out in deepest winter !0 -
No, but since your since your comment about aluminium parts being okay was incorrect then I felt it only fair to point that out. I haven’t offered any opinions about your comments on stress analysis (although I also have a B Eng in Mech Eng)Escargot wrote:At the end of the day you should be no more worried about my lack of in depth knowledge in aluminium corrosion as I might be about yours on stress analysis.
Salt water conditions are largely irrelevant to the corrosion of aluminium alloys. Unless you plan on immersing your bike in the sea. It is the drying of that water, and the resulting concentration of the chloride ions that causes the problem. Hence the widespread use of salt spray testing in the aerospace industry.Escargot wrote:Ultimately, I believe I know enough about aluminium to keep things from falling out of the sky and you've still to confirm my belief that 6061 is not particularly sensitive to salt water conditions - hence why it is used for bits of yachts, bikes, planes, cars etc. I'm not 100% you know given that the aerospace industry is not particularly concerned with salty environments but maybe you'd be good enough to find out.
Not really. The grade of aluminium is largely irrelevant as far as low temperature corrosion resistance is concerned. Aluminium is a very reactive metal which spontaneously forms a ‘passive’ protective layer in air. Much the same as stainless steels. All aluminium alloys will do this. High concentrations of chlorides ion can puncture this film resulting in rapid, localised corrosion. Many fasteners are specified with passivation or chromating to limit these effects.Escargot wrote:To be honest I haven't a clue what grade window frames are made of but saying that they show white powdery deposits (indicating corrosion) is like saying that all metals are the same, which they clearly are not.
Parts are often lacquered, but wheels rims, for example, can corrode badly, even overnight.Escargot wrote:In any case bike components are often coated/plated to prevent/limit corrosion and that's why even my cheap old Carrera (with Sora and other cheap aluminium components/wheels) suffered no ill effects after 5 years of no cleaning whatsoever. .0 -
kingrollo wrote:Ive a CSE grade 4 in maths - and have spent most of my career doing jobs that I can forget about at 5pm......and have flexitime...
However I ride a 6061 , Sora to work daily, wash it about 4 times a year, its still going strong - this doesn't however inspire me to take my new best bike out in deepest winter !
LOL
How dare you enter into a high brow conversation with only a grade 4 CSE in math
In truth there's a world of difference about perceived damage to a bike and what will actually happen. Like my Carrera, your 6061 Sora is proof positive that it ain't that big a deal.
Having said that I can fully understand not wanting to take the best bike out. It's natural to want to keep it tip top but I'm pretty sure it would be fine with a bit of TLC.0 -
Chris James wrote:I have an MSc in Corrosion Science and Engineering from UMIST and have worked in the aerospace industry since 1994.
Was David Scantlebury there then?0 -
redddraggon wrote:Chris James wrote:I have an MSc in Corrosion Science and Engineering from UMIST and have worked in the aerospace industry since 1994.
Was David Scantlebury there then?
Yes, he was. Were you at UMIST?
It's a fair while ago, but David Scantlebury did cathodic protection classes. My tutor was Prof Newman. Stuart Lyons and his girlfriend (forgotten her name, Irish) were also lecturers.0 -
Chris James wrote:No, but since your since your comment about aluminium parts being okay was incorrect then I felt it only fair to point that out. I haven’t offered any opinions about your comments on stress analysis (although I also have a B Eng in Mech Eng)
Ok, we’re getting that you have a number of degrees. I actually have 3 degrees but sadly their last album wasn’t quite up to scratch (I’ll get me coat).
Anyway, my blasé comment seems to be the crux of this conversation. I questioned whether someone should be worried about aluminium parts being damaged by grit (much to your dismay) as in most cases I believe they shouldn’t (although I guess I can’t cover 100% of cases). Ok so it was a sweeping statement but to be fair we are probably 50/50 right/wrong.
Structural damage will, in 99% of cases, not be a problem as stress corrosion cracking will not be a factor. So we are really only dealing with cosmetics, which is also questionable. Clearly you have theoretical/technical knowledge but these things are not always compatible with real world scenarios. That is not an insult but my belief that engineers are often overly paranoid about worse case scenarios and what *might* happen.
To reiterate I had bare, untreated aluminium rims, crank and other components on my Carrera and they were almost as good when I sold the bike as they were when I bought it 5 years earlier. Only my brake callipers were plated but this only serves to confirm my point that some bike parts are not just lacquered (although some undoubtedly are).
As a point of interest I would like to hear from anyone (who treats their bike with a reasonable amount of respect) that is unhappy with the damage on their aluminium components due to grit exposure. I’m sure there will be some but many more that have experienced no significant problems at all. In most cases I'm sure the corrosion is so light that a bit of car polish will bring the finish back up again.Chris James wrote:Not really. The grade of aluminium is largely irrelevant as far as low temperature corrosion resistance is concerned. Aluminium is a very reactive metal which spontaneously forms a ‘passive’ protective layer in air. Much the same as stainless steels. All aluminium alloys will do this. High concentrations of chlorides ion can puncture this film resulting in rapid, localised corrosion. Many fasteners are specified with passivation or chromating to limit these effects.
Is it really irrelevant? Are you suggesting that a 5000 series aluminium is still reactive despite the fact it is widely used in marine environments (in and out of water).Chris James wrote:Parts are often lacquered, but wheels rims, for example, can corrode badly, even overnight.
At the expense of being proved wrong I find that ludicrous. I’ve not spoken to anyone that commutes in winter complaining that their wheels have corroded overnight.0
