Talk to me about long travel HT's ...

stevet1992

So i think its time to upgrade the whole bike now ... the carrera has been in drips and drabs and i think spending anything more on it would just be stupid !

My riding has come a fair way since starting and im starting to get the urge to really let loose on the downs ... But i still want to climb up the hills ... So more an AM bike i suppose

Now ive been reading around for a fair time now ... spending nights buried in reviews etc and would just like to ask on here for some more opinions. That and the fact that i can only find 2 bikes that are what im looking for ! Im looking for a mid to long travel hardtail (around 140mm i suppose) that loves to point down but isnt like running up a buttery slope on the ups

The 2 bikes i can find are

Orange Crush
Marin Rocky Ridge

My budget is around £1000 ... Obviously wanting to keep closer to it !

Any suggestions ?

One thing that i was considering aswell was to use this as a chance to build my own bike ... Buy parts through winter and by the time spring comes have a nice reasonably specced bike ... Obviously this would cost more but could anyone offer any advice on this path to a new bike ?

Cheers in advance chaps

Steve

XCMark

If your looking to build i'd recomend an on one 456, just built one up recently and it is bloody great

Soul Boy

Though about the Bfe http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/BFe ? Their rider Robbie Rickman rode the Mega Avalanche on his.

Haven't riden one myself, but my Soul was a blast in the Les Arc the past 2 summers and I was only running 100mm fork up front.

Also worth considering Dialled Bikes and Cromag....

OK, all this may be pushing your budget.

stevet1992

XCMark

I remember reading somewhere that they are dropping the 456 ?

Soul Boy

Obviously i would expect a custom build to come out more ... and would probally pay more due to the fact that ill be buying parts over a few months

supersonic

Ragley MMMmmmmbopper?

bomberesque

Soul Boy wrote:

my Soul was a blast in the Les Arc the past 2 summers and I was only running 100mm fork up front.

....which is an interesting point; is more better?

My evil will handle anything from 100 to 140 so has a pike coil-U on it. Now, different people like different handling bikes. I for one like a shortish TT and steep HA so I tend to ride the Pike on 100mm. When I know I'm going downhill fast/blind/close to or beyond my normal capabilities I wind out the suspension to 140. It's great and I have oddles more confidence

Question is though; why?

Is it the extra suspension per se or is it the higher front end and slacker HA combining to push my weight back whilst slowing the handling down? I've come to the conclusion that I don't think it's the former or at least that I think the majority of the answer is the latter.

where I'm coming from here is that a 140-150mm fork is a very different beast from a 100mm one and doesn't come without its own drawbacks. It tends to be softer sprung as it has more travel to get through, so the dynamic changes in geometry whilst riding are greater. It tends to be heavier, or it tends to be less stiff ... possibly even both, but never neither unless we're comparing one end of a range with another.140mm forks also bob more ... lots more

my thought then, if I have one, is that you may end up having more fun on a 100mm HT with suitable geometry than a 140mm one with the same resultant geometry unless you're planning to ride lots of DH, but even then (hence the quote). I believe this to be part of the theory behind the 456 Summer season which gives a reasonably slack HA at 100mm.

Anyway; up to you in the end, just my 2p

GHill

supersonic wrote:

Ragley MMMmmmmbopper?

My thoughts exactly.

supersonic

bomberesque wrote:

Soul Boy wrote:

my Soul was a blast in the Les Arc the past 2 summers and I was only running 100mm fork up front.

....which is an interesting point; is more better?

My evil will handle anything from 100 to 140 so has a pike coil-U on it. Now, different people like different handling bikes. I for one like a shortish TT and steep HA so I tend to ride the Pike on 100mm. When I know I'm going downhill fast/blind/close to or beyond my normal capabilities I wind out the suspension to 140. It's great and I have oddles more confidence

Question is though; why?

Is it the extra suspension per se or is it the higher front end and slacker HA combining to push my weight back whilst slowing the handling down? I've come to the conclusion that I don't think it's the former or at least that I think the majority of the answer is the latter.

where I'm coming from here is that a 140-150mm fork is a very different beast from a 100mm one and doesn't come without its own drawbacks. It tends to be softer sprung as it has more travel to get through, so the dynamic changes in geometry whilst riding are greater. It tends to be heavier, or it tends to be less stiff ... possibly even both, but never neither unless we're comparing one end of a range with another.140mm forks also bob more ... lots more

my thought then, if I have one, is that you may end up having more fun on a 100mm HT with suitable geometry than a 140mm one with the same resultant geometry unless you're planning to ride lots of DH, but even then (hence the quote). I believe this to be part of the theory behind the 456 Summer season which gives a reasonably slack HA at 100mm.

Anyway; up to you in the end, just my 2p

Weight distrubution has an effect on handling too - and seat angles. Long forks are usually better worked by having more weight over the front end. This was the problem with old 'non suspension corrected' frames - not the head angle as much, but the slack seat angle and high bottom bracket.

Also slacker HAs mean at full compression the bike doesn't get overly steep. When going down steep hills, this can be beneficial.

As ever, personal preference! More travel allows the bike to deal with hits better too.

Try more low speed damping if the forks are bobbing too much.

Soul Boy

bomberesque

I've only riden my Soul with a 100mm (a few years old American made Manitou Minute 3's) and love it, but would love to try a longer fork, but you could have a point. I'd hate to spend my cash and find out the slackened geomertry isn't half as much fun.

Stevet1992

Just suggestions, I know self builds can start to add up, mine did :oops:

A mate has the Rocket Ridge and loves it, I'm not sold on the geometry, but thats down to personal preference. Its a great looker and has excellent kit.

papasmurf.

Pity its so hard to try forks first..reckon a nice f120 or reba would go well on the soul..

If you could strech your budget to 1.5k then you'd have some nice self builds (dialled bikes PA in battle ship grey..mmhh) or stuff like the alptitude..

Northwind

Soul Boy wrote:

I've only riden my Soul with a 100mm (a few years old American made Manitou Minute 3's) and love it, but would love to try a longer fork, but you could have a point. I'd hate to spend my cash and find out the slackened geomertry isn't half as much fun. t.

Soul + 08 spec dual air u-turn Revelations (100-130mm travel) = WIN! No compromise, just more options.

But, fanboy as I am I'm not sure I'd recommend a Cotic here... The Soul's ace and it can do some surprising things- I took mine down bits of the fort william world cup downhill- but it's a trail or XC bike at heart, it's not as strong a descender as, say, a 456 with a Pike in it. At Fort William I could have done with a few degrees more slack on the front I reckon, though it didn't stop me. And the BFe's a bit of a beast. And both are EXPENSIVE, with a £1000 budget I'd want to spend less on the frame- my Soul's ace but then it should be, it's cost me a kidney A 456 can be got in some sizes for £125!

Other bikes that I've not seen mentioned... Kinesis Pha5e, Ragley Blue Pig, Santa Cruz Chameleon, all seem to fit the bill nicely.

RealMan

Running 09 rev 426s, 110-140mm adjustable. Perfect.

stevet1992

All this talk of head angles and the likes i dont have a clue :shock: So slacker head angles would slow the steering down and put more weight over the back due to the angle of the fork ?

I can see this turning into a custom build ... Ive always wanted to do it and right now im looking at having £500 spare a month from my full time job (after ive taken rent out etc) so why not I already have a pro 2 wheelset to throw into it so thats a £200 chunk taken off the price ... But could easily up the budget if buying parts over the winter

So there must be a solution ... A travel adjustable fork ? something like a Revelation U-Turn or Pike U-Turn ? That way when the riding gets rougher i can wind out the travel and have the advantage of the extra travel , but through the twisty ST wind it down abit to keep the sharper steering ?

The mmmBop looks nice supersonic ... With a 1.5 headtube are you restricted to using 1.5 steerers ? or can you get a step down headset ?

Anonymous

bomberesque wrote:

Soul Boy wrote:

my Soul was a blast in the Les Arc the past 2 summers and I was only running 100mm fork up front.

....which is an interesting point; is more better?

My evil will handle anything from 100 to 140 so has a pike coil-U on it. Now, different people like different handling bikes. I for one like a shortish TT and steep HA so I tend to ride the Pike on 100mm. When I know I'm going downhill fast/blind/close to or beyond my normal capabilities I wind out the suspension to 140. It's great and I have oddles more confidence

Question is though; why?

Is it the extra suspension per se or is it the higher front end and slacker HA combining to push my weight back whilst slowing the handling down? I've come to the conclusion that I don't think it's the former or at least that I think the majority of the answer is the latter.

where I'm coming from here is that a 140-150mm fork is a very different beast from a 100mm one and doesn't come without its own drawbacks. It tends to be softer sprung as it has more travel to get through, so the dynamic changes in geometry whilst riding are greater. It tends to be heavier, or it tends to be less stiff ... possibly even both, but never neither unless we're comparing one end of a range with another.140mm forks also bob more ... lots more

my thought then, if I have one, is that you may end up having more fun on a 100mm HT with suitable geometry than a 140mm one with the same resultant geometry unless you're planning to ride lots of DH, but even then (hence the quote). I believe this to be part of the theory behind the 456 Summer season which gives a reasonably slack HA at 100mm.

Anyway; up to you in the end, just my 2p

i agree with this.

i actually prefer slack HA bikes regardless of travel and in my experience its because of the confidenc it gives when going downwards.

i really like the idea of the summer season as it means even with a short fork, you get that all important (to me anyway) slack angle. i quite fancy a summer season fitted with something like a marz 4x wc or a socety of some sort.

supersonic

I'm a long and steep kina guy. So that is three different riders already!

stevet1992

Should of made this clear :oops: I will be keeping the vulcan for XC rides ... just want something else in the "barracks" for those blast thrash rides

I currently have a 20" vulcan frame which fits me perfectly for XC ... Would i want to go a frame size down for the greater standover height ? Surely if its going to be a harder hitter then the vulcan this makes sense ?

Just looked on On-One ... a summer season frame in 18" is £125 ... all this talk about slack head angles when pointing downhill makes it seem worth it no ? Couple that with a Pike or similar ... Sound like a good plan ?

Anonymous

sounds like a superb plan.

supersonic

It is a heavy frame though. 6lbs plus. Plain guage cromo. Tough, but unforgiving.

supersonic

How about a Kinesis Pha5e?!

RealMan

And pikes are about 5lbs I think.

supersonic

Yeah, MMMbop plus new Revs = Just over 7lbs.

Summer season and pikes = over 11lbs!

Same travel, but probably different usage, and a lot different weight if you plan to ride back up!

Anonymous

where is the 456SS weight quoted from sonic?

RealMan

Yeah, I thought summer season was like just over 5lbs, not 6+..

supersonic

From STW - CY from Cotic weighed the small SS at 1.25lbs more than the BFe, which is quoted at 5.3lbs.

RealMan

http://www.bikemagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/6366

Got it as 5.4lbs here.

supersonic

So who do you believe?! Given the standard 456 is well over 5lbs?

Anonymous

i just read that bike magic too.

sonic, how much would the mmmbop weigh with a pike?

supersonic

Well, Brant claims the MMMBop is 3.7lbs (not sure what size though). Pikes vary from about 4.55lbs for the alu steerered air 454 version, to over 5lbs for the coil 426.

RealMan

supersonic wrote:

So who do you believe?!

supersonic wrote:

CY from Cotic weighed the small SS at 1.25lbs more than the BFe

Out of the guy who works for a rival company saying that the bike is heavier then the one his company makes, or bikemagic?

Tricky one..

supersonic

RealMan wrote:

supersonic wrote:

So who do you believe?!

supersonic wrote:

CY from Cotic weighed the small SS at 1.25lbs more than the BFe

Out of the guy who works for a rival company saying that the bike is heavier then the one his company makes, or bikemagic?

Tricky one..

You need to read what he said ;-)

He liked the summer season!

RealMan

And brant from stw said the normal 456 is 5.25lbs. Hardly going to add a lot of weight just steepening the headtube.

And someone else said the 16" comes to 5.06lbs