Fort Bill Red DH- why can't they use chickenwire?

Muirie

Me and a mate were there at the weekend and both found the boardwalk really slippy.

The problem appears to be where the main line on the painted surface has scrubbed off and we both found the rear tyre hard to stop locking up.

The rock stuff is great but the river at the bottom was a shock as in quite dark trees.

Had 2 runs before a big off at the bottom of the black dented my mates bike, helmet and body.

Why the hell have they got a jump with granite rocks on the other side!!! it is just bloody stupid

paul.skibum

We just use the wrong type of wood over here - I understand from talking to Canadians that north shore is built with a local wood which doesnt get slippery int he wet (it rains a fair bit on the north shore you know) we just stick down pine and it needs more work to make it grippy.

They use chicken wire in Morzine but as is mentioned its flawed as one good braking move with a 2.5 tyre and a heavy bike and its ripped up - you can see the heavy handed riding style of people with ease when you see the damage done but thats about all its good for!

I havent been to Afan in ages but I remember riding the boarding bit on Whites (I think it was) and it certainly was grippy though it was in the relative dry. I bet its pricey though.

cee

a big crowd of us were at fort bill on saturday....

weather was glorious and the boardwalk on the red was realy grippy....no complaints...but not sure what it would do in the wet.

didn't think the red flowed particularly well in places, especially the 180degree turns right at the end of a boardwalk section.....those turns could be wider and more banked to actually allow you to carry speed round.

once off the boardwalk though, the natural rocky stuff is really good and pretty technical. I would say even black xc graded. a couple of the boggy bits are wheel suck central, but line choice eliminates that.....there were a few cpeople mincng down on XC hardtails, and I think they were a little out of their depths....the info about the trail does say red graded for xc bikes, but I think it is a fair bit above that in certain places.

the 3rd run flowed a bit better...so maybe my initial non-flowy thoughts were just not knowing the lines....thoroughly enjoyed ourselves!

stubs

I have to admit I hate boardwalk I find it duller than Dullsville on a sunday morning.

Rode the Fort Bill red a couple of weeks back and yes it is bl**dy slippy when wet I locked up a couple of times (I am a fat scaredy cat) and found that once I was skidding it seemed to take ages for the wheel to grip again.

On my 2nd time going up on the ski lift I was speaking to a couple of lads from Glasgow who ride the DH and the RED most weekends they reckon its really shoddily built and wont last more than 2 seasons, apparently on the really soft bits its already sinking. They reckon the board is okay in pouring rain because the rain washes the cack off its drizzle that makes it a bit squeaky bum time.

As for the red rating I have ridden quite a few black XC routes in Wales and the Borders and this was the hardest I have ridden partly because there is nowhere to ease off and have a breather.

Northwind

cee wrote:

didn't think the red flowed particularly well in places, especially the 180degree turns right at the end of a boardwalk section.....those turns could be wider and more banked to actually allow you to carry speed round.

Ah, those are so crap aren't they... Especially that righthander with the step down into it. I was going to say "What were they thinking" but I know the answer- they were thinking "We'd need another 10 tons of hardcore to make this corner not suck, and helicopter fuel is expensive. **** it".

stubs wrote:

On my 2nd time going up on the ski lift I was speaking to a couple of lads from Glasgow who ride the DH and the RED most weekends they reckon its really shoddily built and wont last more than 2 seasons, apparently on the really soft bits its already sinking.

Ah, I know the answer to this one- I bumped into one of the trailbuilders doing a wee repair, and had a quick chat, because their surfacing's so different to how we do it at glentress. Trailbuilding geekery follows, you might want to stop reading

Basically it's built in the same way as the DH route- it's designed with constant low level maintenance in mind- the surface is lightly built so it wears fast but it's also easier to repair. The armouring we use at GT is a big investment of time to build. It lasts very well, but when it's worn out it has to be completely dug out and replaced- you can't just fill in a pothole as it won't tie into the existing hardpack, so you need to dig out a bigger section and key in the new material, then whackerplate it all down solid. It basically takes one man half a day to repair a metre of trail.

Whereas at FW, the trail's lightly finished- which gives it a more "natural" surface, which is a good thing compared to GT's crust. But though it wears fast, they can just send someone round with a mattock and a shovel and dig and rake it back into shape, then leave it- takes no time at all. Same way they do it at Whistler in fact.

The reasoning is 3 things- one, is that you can get the trail built far faster, since it's far less labour intensive on day one. The second is that it gives you an evolving trail- it'll change with use, pick up different lines etc, rather than being set in stone. And the third is that they figure that no matter what they do, the steepness and speed of the dirt sections means they'll get ripped up by people locking up anyway, so they might as well make it easy to fix.

All seems pretty sensible, it wouldn't work with GT's numbers but then it doesn't have to. The looser surface is certainly more fun to ride on, I reckon. If you watch Ben Cathro's video you can really see them digging in on the loose dirt of the bottom section.

cee

Northwind wrote:

cee wrote:

didn't think the red flowed particularly well in places, especially the 180degree turns right at the end of a boardwalk section.....those turns could be wider and more banked to actually allow you to carry speed round.

Ah, those are so crap aren't they... Especially that righthander with the step down into it. I was going to say "What were they thinking" but I know the answer- they were thinking "We'd need another 10 tons of hardcore to make this corner not suck, and helicopter fuel is expensive. **** it".

that right hander is the very one i was thinking of. with the step....

RichMTB

Especially that righthander with the step down into it. I was going to say "What were they thinking" but I know the answer- they were thinking "We'd need another 10 tons of hardcore to make this corner not suck, and helicopter fuel is expensive. **** it".

Totally agree, its getting eroded as well which makes the drop more of a pain. You've got no real option but to roll it as the dirt section they have made the 180 corner out of isn't big enough to take any speed on to. ruins the flow of what up to that point is a nice section.

I'm not a great fan of the rocky sections that follow either mainly becuase a) I'm a sh1tebag who doesn't like the idea of riding on really hard rock! and b) for even a very skilled rider I think it would be difficult to carry any real speed in these sections

cee

RichMTB wrote:

Especially that righthander with the step down into it. I was going to say "What were they thinking" but I know the answer- they were thinking "We'd need another 10 tons of hardcore to make this corner not suck, and helicopter fuel is expensive. **** it".

Totally agree, its getting eroded as well which makes the drop more of a pain. You've got no real option but to roll it as the dirt section they have made the 180 corner out of isn't big enough to take any speed on to. ruins the flow of what up to that point is a nice section.

I'm not a great fan of the rocky sections that follow either mainly becuase a) I'm a sh1tebag who doesn't like the idea of riding on really hard rock! and b) for even a very skilled rider I think it would be difficult to carry any real speed in these sections

see I quite liked the rocky sections.....apart from the flat/uphill bits.....the steeper rocky sections are a total blast and a really good introduction to downhill...like what the trail should be....

ESHER SHORE

We just use the wrong type of wood over here - I understand from talking to Canadians that north shore is built with a local wood which doesnt get slippery int he wet (it rains a fair bit on the north shore you know) we just stick down pine and it needs more work to make it grippy.

what you are talking about is North American Cedar - when rough cut or axe split it has a fibrous texture which is extremely grippy in all weather conditions, and the timber itself has a sap (resin) which is anti-fungal which makes it very long lasting in wet climates

I have ridden the North Shore trails on the 3 mountains opposite Vancouver (Canada) in the pouring rain, and after rain storms, and had no issues with traction due to the grippy Cedar slats, and porous rock slabs





we've stopped using chicken wire at Esher Shore - its being replaced as required with medium gauge (1.6mm) galvanised steel mesh which lasts for many years with little to no maintenance

Esher Shore gets regular maintenance, and it was never a problem to replace the chicken wire, but we found the same sections of trail (usually braking zones or steeps) got ripped out, so to save money and time, we have switched to the wire mesh and it doesn't need replacing for 2-3 years, if ever...

if using knobbly (MTB) tires you won't slip even in pouring rain or snow as the knobbles key into the mesh cells

check this out:

http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Medium-Weight-16-gauge-1.6-mm-wire-c-88.html

Northwind

RichMTB wrote:

I'm not a great fan of the rocky sections that follow either mainly becuase a) I'm a sh1tebag who doesn't like the idea of riding on really hard rock! and b) for even a very skilled rider I think it would be difficult to carry any real speed in these sections

Ah, see, I loved those bits, absolutely loved them, I can't carry any pace but then I didn't feel like I had to- I just loved picking my way through them, trying different lines, etc. it's got the same feel as the secrets at glentress, I reckon slowing down and really working the trail rather than bouncing over the top is really rewarding (but if you've seen the vid with Ben Cathro on the prototype Strange, he goes over them like he's on a hoverbike then jumps up the climb without even slowing!)

But yeah, the penalty for failure on some bits is quite high, that could be offputting. (I'm so hard, my only concern was that if I fell I might destroy some irreplacable bedrock with my titanium jaw)