Where will it all end?
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Theres definitely a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks,in.I think this point can vary depending on the indvivdual rider,their ability and where they ride,but some products stand out as,do you really need anything more.
For example a good case would be with a product like Shimano SLX cranks.Lightish,hardwearing,loook go
ood and £90.Really make you wnder why you would realistically want anything better,other than the kudos/bragging rights of having something more exclusive.2006 Giant XTC
2010 Giant Defy Advanced
2016 Boardman Pro 29er
2016 Pinnacle Lithium 4
2017 Canondale Supersix Evo0 -
With you on the SLX I used to use XT but as things wear out I have been replacing them with SLX and on my last build I used SLX, very good value.It's not a ornament, so ride It0
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Pah, I laugh in the face of £900 forks, I wouldn't get so hung up about.
If they build it, some magpie like muppet will buy it, usually me. I was looking at some Manitou Dorado's the other day thinking, "Hmmmm, maybe a do need carbon forks, for my dozen or so uplift days a year and annual trip to the big mountains".
I think you're torn between the knowledge that performance doesn't go up in a straight line with price and your need to have the same or better than the next guy. My little happy riding team is based on it, ha ha. You wouldn't belive the amont of cash that gets spunked to keep up with the jones'.0 -
Lester Cat wrote:I just think that there must be a performance curve, and it must be getting increasingly harder to notice any significant improvement.
Yes there is, and yes it does. Twas ever thus tbh, it's just easier to get from crap to average than it is from average to good, or from good to great, and so on. Also low value high volume get better economies of scale than high value low volume, and bleeding edge quality is harder to industrialise and mass produce. That's just manufacturing, it was the same for bronze age axes.
But over time, cutting edge becomes mundane, today's average forks use technology that was unobtainium a few years ago. So it doesn't end, but good performance gets more affordable. Thing is, our idea of good shifts, it's not an absolute- a Tora 302 is amazing by my 1990s standards but "basic" or "crude" by a 2009 rider on a £4000 bike. And in 10 years time his £4000 bike will be an antique, but it'll still be exactly as good as it was today- and that's where the real madness is, the idea that just because something else is better, what you have is bad.
So where will it end? Never. Where is it going? Nowhere.Uncompromising extremist0 -
eh?
isn't this argument like saying, what's the point in buying a Mercedes SL 55 when a Fiat Punto will get you to work and back no problem at all?
Of course you should notice at least some sort of difference between a £250 fork and a £900 fork. The extent to which you notice it will depend on many factors, one of which being the law of diminishing returns as many have pointed out.
But it doesn't have to be linked to an increase in price. Sometimes it's just finding a better tool for the job.
For example, I have a 160mm trail bike that I thought was more than capable of doing anything I could reasonably want - which it does.
I then build a DH/FR bike for the fun of it, which actually cost less than my trail bike to build.
Going out on my DH/FR bike has completely transformed my regular trails. I now have effectively 2 completely different sets of trails rolled into one, depending on what bike I take out.
My next build is going to be a little hardtail, and guess what, I'll have 3 completely different trails rolled into one!
Yes, buying a higher specced part should enhance that area of your bikes performance, but will the extra money translate into a proportionate increase in your overall performance/enjoyment? Who knows!
Rather than spending another £900 on forks, why not try building a completely different bike, you might get more out of your overall enjoyment of biking that way.0 -
+1
It worked for me!
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Joe_Pineapples wrote:We have a dealer who regularly visits my work who shelled out £42,000 for a Ducati Desmosedici hyperbike, so there's no shortage of people who'll pay to have what they consider to be the best.
Off Topic:
1.Its not a hyperbike, its a superbike.
2. 47k is an absolute steal. Its like buying a £1000 mtb for about £300.
3. It cost ducati just shy of 160K per bike to make. Wasn't made for profits, was made to show you what they can do.
4. Consider to be the best?? Correction, is the best money can buy.
On topic;
At the end of the day, if you can afford it, why not??
Yeh, some stuff is overpriced but everything is nowadays.
The only people that complain are the people that don't really have the money to get the "new" "top of the range" stuff.
99% of the people that buy all the top end stuff still ride it so whats the problem.
Jake0 -
It comes down to what you noyice too- you may not be able to tell the difference in a £900 to a £250 fork but a lot of people can.
I can't tell the difference in cheap speaker cable to expensive stuff but some people can :!:0 -
snotty badger wrote:I can't tell the difference in cheap speaker cable to expensive stuff but some people can :!:
Uh oh...Uncompromising extremist0 -
jake_tenfloors wrote:Joe_Pineapples wrote:We have a dealer who regularly visits my work who shelled out £42,000 for a Ducati Desmosedici hyperbike, so there's no shortage of people who'll pay to have what they consider to be the best.
Off Topic:
1.Its not a hyperbike, its a superbike.
2. 47k is an absolute steal. Its like buying a £1000 mtb for about £300.
3. It cost ducati just shy of 160K per bike to make. Wasn't made for profits, was made to show you what they can do.
4. Consider to be the best?? Correction, is the best money can buy.
Jake
I quite clearly mentioned this in my comment to reinforce my assertion that the cost of something bears no reflection on how well it will sell, just like a Merida 96, just like a Specialized S-Works, just like a Scott Genius LTD, etc etc . . .
. . . and PS, I've been involved with motorbike racing for 14 years and have visited the Ducati factory twice, there's NO WAY that bike costs them 160 grand.0 -
A lot of cycling specific stuff is a big con, just look at the price of lights compared to torches or worse yet the cost of some of the clothing - what justification can there be for a £150 jersey (mine was £6 from lidl does me just fine) or £70 for a pair of lycra shorts?
Component-wise you pays your money and takes your choices - unless you're competing I can't see why you'd want to spend thousands on a bike but to a point it's only as expensive as you want it to be. Lots of people chose to blow their money on their hobbies, I reckon blowing a fortune on a bike is likely better value than spending it on high-end audio stuff.0 -
pastryboy wrote:A lot of cycling specific stuff is a big con, just look at the price of lights compared to torches
This is economies of scale- torch companies make a lot and sell a lot, means you can spread the cost of your R&D and tooling over more units. Light manufacturers sell a lot fewer items.
(the other reason that "proper" bike lights tend to be so uncompetetive is that the manufacturers can't afford to constantly innovate- so they can't always be upgrading to the latest emitters etc.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Yeah, you can feel a difference between a £200 fork and a £900 fork. Massive difference. And good wheels too, and a stiff stem, and a comfy saddle. A waterproof jacket that doesn't make you feel like you've been wrapped in clingfilm.
There are exceptions though. Can I feel the difference between Deore and XTR? Not really. XT used to be the benchmark of shifting performance when gears barely worked, but these days, anything made by the big S or the smaller S works a treat. A bike/frame doesn't have to be expensive to ride nicely.
Does an adjustable seatpost a la Joplin improve your ride? Yeah, but it's still a laugh without one.
I'd have to argue that the law of diminishing returns erodes at about £1,200 on a full suss frame, £2,000 for a full build and about £1,200 on hardtail bikes. The difference in stiffness to weight ratio year on year is astounding. Look at the evolution of the Trek Fuel EX or the Specialized Enduro.
The difference between a £1,600 Trek fuel EX 6.5 and the £2,200 Fuel EX9 is epic. Tons stiffer, much lighter, faster wheels, more reliable bearings in the pivots, more effective suspension design out back, a much lighter and better damped fork up front, more powerful brakes. Not that the 6.5 is a bad bike, just that I'd gladly hand over the extra £600 for a big dose of performance. Would I buy the carbon 9.9? NO!!!! It's only a couple of pounds lighter and a touch stiffer, it's got the same wheels, forks and braking power.
Is a Santa Cruz worth the extra money over the big brands? Is it f**k, maybe in your mind. They're not even made in the USA any more so you can't even be smug about that, realistically, the only thing you get for your extra wedge with a SC is a choice of colour.
So the answer to your question, (in my opinion) is yes and no.I had to beat them to death with their own shoes...
HiFi Pro Carbon '09
LTS DH '96
The Mighty Dyna-Sore - The 90's?0 -
pastryboy wrote:A lot of cycling specific stuff is a big con, just look at the price of lights compared to torches or worse yet the cost of some of the clothing - what justification can there be for a £150 jersey (mine was £6 from lidl does me just fine) or £70 for a pair of lycra shorts?
Component-wise you pays your money and takes your choices - unless you're competing I can't see why you'd want to spend thousands on a bike but to a point it's only as expensive as you want it to be. Lots of people chose to blow their money on their hobbies, I reckon blowing a fortune on a bike is likely better value than spending it on high-end audio stuff.
Ah, man, don't get me started about expensive HiFi. It's worth every penny if it floats your boat, and they last a hell of a lot longer than a bike.I had to beat them to death with their own shoes...
HiFi Pro Carbon '09
LTS DH '96
The Mighty Dyna-Sore - The 90's?0 -
someone alert the press, the best kit costs the most money shocker.
the world needs to be informed that mtb is completely different to everything else in as much as there is some un-necessarily expensive kit available
(unlike any other hobby/pastime/interest/hobby/sport/food/drink/diy kit etc etc.)
for the most part, more expensive kit is better. this is not a new thing. sounds to me like someone wishes they could afford a better bike but is justifying a cheaper one by saying there is no point to the more pricey kit that they have never tried.0 -
Thought I would dive in here regarding hype surrounding the mtb industry. I have just posted a new topic about the big wheel review in WMB 101. Is that relevant or hype? Feel free to look it up and comment.0
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fox 36?0
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Do you need to spens lots of money to have fun?
My lucky wife gets to ride a hand-me down Apollo XC26. Its a heap of poo, very heavy, forks that don't compress, gears that don't change, wheels that are buckled, brakes that sound like the horn on the QE2. You get the picture.
I have a Raleigh Max Lite HT3s that feels like an XC thoroughbred in comparisson and it is much nicer to ride with clean changes, forks that do compress and a nice light stiff frame and a cable disc brake I tell you! It cost me in the region of £500-£600 11 years ago and its leagues ahead of the Apollo. I loved it...
The problem is that I've grown bored of riding to places and just enyoy speed and getting air. The Raleigh feels twitchy, harsh and unstable if I try to hop off a curb....
So I bought a Trex Remedy 8, exponentially more expensive, but it has lovely damped air forks with massive travel, a strong light frame with forgiving rear suspension, incredibly powerful hydraulic disc brakes and .........you get the idea.
Of the three I love the Remedy and the rest are relegated.........but give that Apollo to a kid in the third world who doesn't know there is better out there or indeed me when I was fiften and it would seem awesome, pride and joy stuff riden every day with a smile. When I bought my Raleigh I thought it was the dogs danglies and used to keep it in my bedroom and rode it with pride. It was great and I enjoyed it for years.
The human race aspires to better itself, and it is our nature to want better......if we know its out there! Development has moved at a fast pace, but more importantly marketing and communication has opened up a new world for everyone to see everything available, not just whats in the lbs. As a result the market has grown and with increasing demand comes increasing supply!0 -
if the human race aspires to get better get rid of bnp?0
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M.C. wrote:but give that Apollo to a kid in the third world who doesn't know there is better out there or indeed me when I was fiften and it would seem awesome, pride and joy stuff riden every day with a smile. !
Absolutely true. But then ask him to ride it down nevis red, and he'll be killed at least twice Uncompromising extremist0 -
possibly three times0
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Northwind wrote:M.C. wrote:but give that Apollo to a kid in the third world who doesn't know there is better out there or indeed me when I was fiften and it would seem awesome, pride and joy stuff riden every day with a smile. !
Absolutely true. But then ask him to ride it down nevis red, and he'll be killed at least twice 0 -
Joe_Pineapples wrote:Lester Cat wrote:£900 for some forks, can i really feel the difference against my £250 forks?
In a word, yes.
+1 for Joe Pineapples
However it does depend IMO on what sort of riding you do,If for example all you do is ride to the shops or along a canal path with the kids once a month then any kit will do,but if you ride daily and more seriously whether that be xc or dh or anything inbetween ,then in my view better kit does tend to make a difference,also i feel the skill level of the rider is a factor in this ie the better you are the more you can get out of the kit and therefore expose its limitations0 -
we should welcome the top-end kit with open arms IMO. Not that I could, or ever would buy it. But we al benefit from the technology trickle down.
I look at my old Gt Talera I had in 1990, with it's rigid forks, 18 gears, centre pull brakes which i paid £250 and compare this with a current £600 bike.... I know what I'd rather have.
And hi-fi?..... easily beats MTB for sheer snake oil charmery and emperors new clothes vaporware any day of the week. I was browsing a price list at the Sound and Vision Show in Manchester last week and had to pick myself up off the floor after reading it.
How about 2 lengths of 5m cable for the miserly sum of £51,000 (yes you read it it right... £51K for 2 lengths of speaker cable (eek!). )
This was after laughing my ass off at a bag of 10x13Amp fuses for £22, and mains leads for £500.
The words 'a fool and his money...' came to mind.
We should think ourselves lucky we enjoy a 'cheap' hobby
Cool, retro and sometimes downright rude MTB and cycling themed T shirts. Just MTFU.
By day: http://www.mtfu.co.uk0 -
sheepsteeth wrote:someone alert the press, the best kit costs the most money shocker.
the world needs to be informed that mtb is completely different to everything else in as much as there is some un-necessarily expensive kit available
(unlike any other hobby/pastime/interest/hobby/sport/food/drink/diy kit etc etc.)
for the most part, more expensive kit is better. this is not a new thing. sounds to me like someone wishes they could afford a better bike but is justifying a cheaper one by saying there is no point to the more pricey kit that they have never tried.
lmao and +1, so true0 -
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Spending more usually results in better kit up to a point. Then it gets silly light, too fragile and doesn't last.
I think there's a balance and if you go over a certain budget, stuff will break more easily (that's for XC bikes anyway). Not a hard and fast rule but often works.
A 17lb MTB is all very well but crash it and it'll be totalled.0
